I disagree completely.
Conscripts can't handle lights, so you already have the need for penals/guards or T2.
Cons won't certainly handle new, early PGs, so you have a need for penals/guards/shocks.
Cons will quickly start falling behind volks in early and mid game once StGs appear, which means penals/maxims/elites are needed again.
And the most important thing you really seem to forget about is the fact that this con upgrade is T4 and cons start falling behind as soon as 5th minute of the game due to appearing opposing elites and weapon upgrades.
Early game con spam is going to be as easily counterable as it is now. 4 cons might see re appearance without the need of ppsh doctrine, but more then that at you'll be shooting yourself at foot again, hell if 7th man upgrade isn't scaling them sufficiently enough, 4 cons already might be a bad idea.
And that is precisely why cons need to be made viable at end game as well.
So we do NOT HAVE to spam one single type of unit to carry the weight of mainline alone.
Cons being cheaper then penals and maxims specifically allow for diversity as now you have a bit of extra resources to put in other options without the absolute need to resort to spam that other options exclusively as it was the case with penals, maxims and guards up until this point in time.
You can disagree as much you like, but you suggested that Conscripts spam should become a viable tactic not me and that makes the rest of yor post irrelevant.
Have a nice day. |
Doesn't really cause any problem with assault engineers. Removing their SVT first cuts their damage even with it dramatically. If it is too much, fine, leave it to the CEs. The swap to mosin and PPSH/PTRS options would still suit me fine.
Assault engineer are 5 men with smg (that have low dps at range 20) not 6 men. (and yea they do cause problems.) |
Penals always had a role. But because cons were a dumpster fire they had to carry T1 builds on their own, et viola, we have the current state of penals.
They're an assault unit deaigned to remove fortifications. That is why they had flamethrowers and satchel charges. The SVT choice was always dumb but what are you gonna do. I agree that they have lost their identity but only because cons were so bad. Their AT rifles, at least, make sense. Forcing soviet T1 builds to ALWAYS have to pick guards for AT is not a good design choice and restricts variety in builds. Similarly, forcing shock troop commanders for bunker removal is bad. We HAD soviets where commanders were mandatory to have a full tool kit and it was a miserable time.
Engineers are also not durable enough to charge anything with a demo charge.
In my ideal design:
Conscript stats stay. As non-doc upgrades they can choose to buy two ppsh, three svt or two PTRS. They are now a versatile squad that can always bring something to any commander, but their upgrades are worse at their job than dedicated squads for any job. They exist to plug any hole in your army build with acceptable and cheap units. Side tech costs are reduced further. The doctrinal packages are upgrades to the normal ones: ppsh cons get more PPSH and maybe 5% RA. PTRS cons get more rifles and the grenade volley.
Give penals a mosin. Allow them to pick either three PTRS, three PPSH or a single flamethrower. T1 now has decent AT and a CQC squad. Penals no longer are just better conscripts and they are only good in close as assault troops.
Remove the guard PTRS. Give them a single DP as default with button. Allow them to buy one or two more DPs. Maybe even reduce their close range mosin damage. They are now a dedicated long range firepower squad and they rely on other unuts for AT damage and defending against CQC squads. T2 has maxims and at guns, t1 has penals, either of them have conscriots as cheap line filler.
Shocks are still damage dealing tanks with smoke and frags. Their simplicity is a strength.
There you go. Elite infantry have distinct roles. Penals have a job and don't just beat cons at all ranges. Conscripts don't excell at anything but they can do a little bit of everything, from sandbags to grenades to merging.
6 men penals with flamer is an incredibly bad idea. |
Yes, people have suggested weapon upgrade for years now.
Firstly relic and now modders do literally everything in their power to avoid it, because reasons.
7th man was implemented and guess what?
Modders themselves are now discussing possibility of giving that upgrade an additional DPS boost, because clearly and empirically proven, both over last years and in this very mod, durability alone without any bite gets them nowhere.
Now, they don't need LMG42 level of DPS increase, but they most certainly need DPS scaling more then durability scaling, especially in late game, where its NOT small arms that decimate them, but prolonged engagements with a lot of explody stuff involved.
I'll share a little secret with you:
ANY change that will make cons a viable choice will bring back con spam. There are MULTIPLE commanders who are DEDICATED to spamming cons. Con spam is most certainly very intended since day 1.
Now, how exactly is that a bad thing again?
Its a faction that IS DESIGNED to SPAM one type of infantry and then supplement it with what's needed later.
You know what happened when con spam was killed?
Maxim spam happened.
You know what happened when maxim spam was killed?
Guard spam happened.
You know what happened when guards were briefly killed?
Maxim spam returned.
You know what happened when maxim was again killed?
Penal spam happened.
The faction is MADE to spam select type of infantry, just like OKW is meant to spam volks.
If stock conscripts spam becomes a viable tactic as it once was, there will be little reason to built any other unit.
The aim of diversity changes as the one conscripts is should be to create room for all units to be used. Else you simply replacing one spam with another maxims->Penals |
Cons already have durability.....
The current changes are happening SPECIFICALLY because amazing durability means literally nothing if you can't do anything in return and cons aren't exactly Diablo 2 Iron Golem you believe they are for whatever reason.
Again that theory is simply false, since adding a 7th entity also increases durability. If they aim was to increase damage they would a weapon upgrade.
If one increase DPS one simply run the risk of bring back conscript spam.
In addition one should not aim to make conscripts work on their own but to work with other units, so a combination of conscript soaking up damage while other units dish out damage is a good one. |
It was nerfed to yellow cover years ago.
And if you're in position where it would be even semi optimal to use it, you already lost a model.
That info is simply false:
It gives them damage reduction as defensive bonus.
Cover changed from yellow-cover to -10% received damage
Accuracy decreased by 20% while active |
It gives them green cover bonus which reduce chance of instantly loose model and give time to make some damage. I wouldn't say it's a bad idea but don't think it would solve the entire conscript problem.
It gives damage reduction which is allot better.
With the changes to reinforcement cost and XP gain conscripts do not need more DPS they need durability so that they can win attrition fights or soak damage while other units deal damage. And hit the dirt gives exactly that. |
Tommies have weapon cooldown reduction while Osttruppen get bonus accuracy. And an offensive buff for their Mosins would still be much more effective than, I dunno, not having one?
Even if that still doesn't "work" as well as cover bonuses for LMG squads, what about adding in extra defensive options, like further received accuracy reduction? Healing in cover?
Ostruppen get a bonus in cover because their DPS out of cover is close to half of that of conscripts while tommies out of cover DPS is also low. So these unit are design to fight from cover and are bad when fighting out of it.
One could simply give the 7 men conscripts access to "hit the dirt" which is a good ability. |
It only functions as a nornal LMG in cover, but it also is an LMG. It has most damage at max range and wants you to be stationary.
Conscripts have butt damage at max range and all their toolkit encourages you to be mobile. Oorah, grenade range, their damage curve and no weapon upgrade.
It may be in the description but it doesn't fit the current design at all.
That information is wrong
Osttruppen slot weapon have a -25% penalty when in cover, so they do not work as normal LMG.
And Osttruppen is not a good example to begin with since they do actually work in late game. |
I have another suggestion:
Sniper only critical kill weapon teams.
Sniper now do 40-60 damage to infantry.
Plain simple clean. |