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russian armor

Can You Please Fix Churchill Crocs Rear Armor ?

13 Oct 2019, 10:05 AM
#41
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 556



In your scenario, if the croc run toward you, 2 panther and a pak can handle it event from the front since panther have enough pen, put your pak far behind and the croc will have a hell of a ride to touch it since it have to face 2 panther fist. Meanwhile, try to close in with infantry from the side, since croc's flame gun can only fire to the front, by doing this, you can get pgren to shoot in the croc's side, or force the croc to expose it side to panther/pak if it want to use flame again your inf, add a faust and the croc will not going any where. Those above are what i can recommend in your scenario but it not necessary the principal of any engagement.

Also, if your enemy support his croc with plenty of AT an infantry then i think he is doing combine arm pretty well, so "no brainer" is not a suitable description.



2 ATGs + Croc vs 2 Panthers + ATG + My Infantry trying to get past croc to force of ATGs. Well my level of needed combined arms seems even higher ?
13 Oct 2019, 10:26 AM
#42
avatar of madin2

Posts: 203

Jilet it seems like you never or play very rarely Brits yourself, you should try the croc by yourself in at least 10 games.

It is a good tank but you also have to compare it to a Tiger, Is-2 or Pershing and for my experience i would take any of these 3 tanks over the croc.

And for the people who are crying for the main gun nerv, we had this state a few patches ago and i turned out the croc was UP, so it got buffed.
13 Oct 2019, 10:40 AM
#43
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Oct 2019, 10:05 AMJilet


2 ATGs + Croc vs 2 Panthers + ATG + My Infantry trying to get past croc to force of ATGs. Well my level of needed combined arms seems even higher ?


He was using combine arm force to attack you, so he is not a "nobraner" isn't he. Playing again an enemy who has a plan and know what he is doing, how do you expect to win ? A move in to him with you army ? I dont think so, you will need a higher lv of combined arm skill.
13 Oct 2019, 18:45 PM
#44
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Oct 2019, 10:26 AMmadin2
Jilet it seems like you never or play very rarely Brits yourself, you should try the croc by yourself in at least 10 games.

It is a good tank but you also have to compare it to a Tiger, Is-2 or Pershing and for my experience i would take any of these 3 tanks over the croc.

And for the people who are crying for the main gun nerv, we had this state a few patches ago and i turned out the croc was UP, so it got buffed.


Why would you Compare croc churchill (flame tank, ai oriented) vs IS2 or tiger or Pershing (AT oriented generalist heavy)

They have NOTHING in common.

UKF with croc has the heaviest flamer unit in game. And no one bats an eye.
13 Oct 2019, 20:05 PM
#45
avatar of madin2

Posts: 203



Why would you Compare croc churchill (flame tank, ai oriented) vs IS2 or tiger or Pershing (AT oriented generalist heavy)

They have NOTHING in common.

UKF with croc has the heaviest flamer unit in game. And no one bats an eye.


Why not?
They cost the same and arrive at the same time.
The croc is super good vs inf and support weapons while its mediocre against tanks and slow but has therefor good armor.
IS2, Tiger and Pershing are good ai and at and a bit more mobile but with less HP and worse armor.

They all fulfill they same role, they are good against everything but long range at.
13 Oct 2019, 20:47 PM
#46
avatar of Freestyler1992

Posts: 88

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Oct 2019, 05:27 AMmrgame2
The problem with stugs their dps have been downgraded, while still have lousy pen and range. They no longer help if you are behind. Would save for panther than throw 2 stugs out to die.


Panther dps lol...
13 Oct 2019, 20:50 PM
#47
avatar of Freestyler1992

Posts: 88



He was using combine arm force to attack you, so he is not a "nobraner" isn't he. Playing again an enemy who has a plan and know what he is doing, how do you expect to win ? A move in to him with you army ? I dont think so, you will need a higher lv of combined arm skill.


What other option do you have as ost? You don't as the only merit of the faction is combined arms. Just to re mind you; croc has high damage and roasts the At gun and infantry within the blink of an eye. It has high armor and high health, so it can soak the damage whilst it roasts the at guns and infantry. Then, your panther has low dps, so again you are out of luck. The brit also has infantry pounding you and at guns that don't get torched within seconds.

Your only option is adding in some stuka loiter, which basically shuts down the entire Crocodile strategy anyway lol. But still, I think the croc is in a good place right now. I don't see it that often to be honest, which surprises me.
13 Oct 2019, 21:26 PM
#48
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



Panther dps lol...


This meme is old.

So Jackson RoF is 6.3s, while the PV is 6.4s. FF is 8s, while Su85 is 5.4s.
PIV RoF is 5.4s. T3485/Comet is 6.15s and E8 been at 6.3s.


(without the +.26s on all vehicles from aim/ready times)

Stug (sheer volume fire by having 2) is still more effective on dealing with Churchills than PV. Even when you account for penetration values. My surprise is that Croc TTK vs Churchill TTK on both PV and Stug are similar even when you account that one is a 240/1400 HP and the other is 290/1080 HP.
13 Oct 2019, 21:29 PM
#49
avatar of Freestyler1992

Posts: 88



This meme is old.


Still true though!
13 Oct 2019, 21:40 PM
#50
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



Still true though!

Only if you didn't updated your game after panther adjustment patch.
13 Oct 2019, 23:27 PM
#51
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Oct 2019, 20:05 PMmadin2


They cost the same and arrive at the same time.
The croc is super good vs inf and support weapons while its mediocre against tanks and slow but has therefor good armor.
IS2, Tiger and Pershing are good ai and at and a bit more mobile but with less HP and worse armor.

They all fulfill they same role, they are good against everything but long range at.


Would you then show some footage of crocchills fighting a couple ATG at mid range vs IS2/Tiger fighting a couple ATGs mid range.

Show IS2 vs Panther / Tiger vs Firefly / Crocchills vs panter.

Crocchills vs pgren with pzshreks / IS2 vs pgrenshreks / Tiger vs PIAT or zook mainline inf.

Show us that they all fullfill the same role and back it up with some stats.
13 Oct 2019, 23:55 PM
#52
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

Dont forgot panther have slow turret and worse scatter for a unit without range and moving accuracy advantage. We just got a sight scope nerf.

Ultimately PV veterancy on armor skirts is useless against the current state.
14 Oct 2019, 00:22 AM
#53
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

I don't see any good reason the rear armor should be 180

If lowering they number hurts the Croc so much, lower it's cost a little

I don't see how anyone could have a problem with this idea, and someone mentioned this on the first page
14 Oct 2019, 00:35 AM
#54
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

I don't see any good reason the rear armor should be 180

If lowering they number hurts the Croc so much, lower it's cost a little

I don't see how anyone could have a problem with this idea, and someone mentioned this on the first page


I honestly don't understand why any tank needs rear armor above 100. It's not like you're driving up rear first, and if you're banking on a rear armor bounce you've already fucked up somewhere.

They really should just do away with 180 rear armors and implement a skin on tanks that say "THIS WAY FORWARD!!! ->"
14 Oct 2019, 00:54 AM
#55
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


I honestly don't understand why any tank needs rear armor above 100. It's not like you're driving up rear first, and if you're banking on a rear armor bounce you've already fucked up somewhere.

They really should just do away with 180 rear armors and implement a skin on tanks that say "THIS WAY FORWARD!!! ->"


+1 on all accounts, especially the tank skin
14 Oct 2019, 01:11 AM
#56
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

The problem with the Churchill in general is that it can sit in front of a pak for
1400hp / 160dmg = 8.75 ^ 9shots x 3.75 = 33.75s, more than half a minute
This means it can just sit there and kill your infantry and once your infantry is all retreated the British infantry forces the at gun away

16 pop vs 7pop
14 Oct 2019, 05:48 AM
#57
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

PzIV should simply have better chance to penetrate the rear armor many heavy tanks including Churchill.

To make things worse Churchill have high mobility with high rotation and acceleration (despite slow Top speed) making difficult to flank to begin with.
14 Oct 2019, 06:35 AM
#58
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

Churchill turret also spin fast and have lower near range scatter miss. I will say Churchill have better pen against p4.
14 Oct 2019, 06:41 AM
#59
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

The key aspect here is that church is ment to fight off effectively P4´s and when we see their respective costs theres a clear picture of why.

The whole problem with churchills rear armor is that for the game, there is no such thing as "rear armo"r but "rear half", therefore longer tanks are more susceptible to rear armor mini crit.

Churchill is just a bad implementation of the front/rear armor mechanic because of its geometry and because it was added long after the game engine was finished

Added: normal churchill is just a heavy tank capable of counter axis mediums by its durability instead of a better gun. IMO this concept is fine as long as panthers are able to bounce off churchills shots.
14 Oct 2019, 06:49 AM
#60
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

Yes but panther rear half is only 90.
A Churchill has better chance of killing a panther than p4 has killing a Churchill, or a t34/85 has better chance of killing p5 than p4 killing Churchill etc.

hence frustrations for wehrboo

As i been clamouring for. Panther veterancy of armor skirts is useless these days.
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