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Maxim Overperforming

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17 Sep 2019, 05:56 AM
#101
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

to be honest: on maps with lanes it does it job very well and cut of okw as faction completely until they get luchs or some ISGs.

a smart maxim player can you bring to switch the side and he hold alone a fuel, muni and vp point. until you have the units to deal with mg as OKW

but this isnt an overperforming maxim reason...its the OKW weakness against early mg spam.
17 Sep 2019, 06:06 AM
#102
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 495 | Subs: 1

to be honest: on maps with lanes it does it job very well and cut of okw as faction completely until they get luchs or some ISGs.

a smart maxim player can you bring to switch the side and he hold alone a fuel, muni and vp point. until you have the units to deal with mg as OKW

but this isnt an overperforming maxim reason...its the OKW weakness against early mg spam.


OKW does have pretty good doctrinal tools to beat HMGs in the early game. The Fiersturm doctrine MP40 Volks can use their Model 24 smoke grenades to push through an MG’s arc pretty easily.

OKW may not have good vanilla counters to early MGs, but it’s got some good doctrinal ones. Plus MP40 volks are fun and remind me of the vCoH volks that could get MP40s that no one ever used. Lol
17 Sep 2019, 07:56 AM
#103
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243



OKW does have pretty good doctrinal tools to beat HMGs in the early game. The Fiersturm doctrine MP40 Volks can use their Model 24 smoke grenades to push through an MG’s arc pretty easily.

OKW may not have good vanilla counters to early MGs, but it’s got some good doctrinal ones. Plus MP40 volks are fun and remind me of the vCoH volks that could get MP40s that no one ever used. Lol


this is the only commander which allows this.

but u need a special commander, and huge invests to come near to a mg (upgrading volks + 1 smoke grenade + a other volks which trow the vulkan grenade.)

17 Sep 2019, 08:16 AM
#104
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1

Maxin OP? what is this 2015
17 Sep 2019, 08:39 AM
#105
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


You seem to be having a really hard time understanding this... Reducing the crew number on the maxim will only make death loop worse.


it wont make the deathloop worse... but it will make an mg with horrible survivability have even less survivability
17 Sep 2019, 08:46 AM
#106
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 02:42 AMmrgame2

Anyway i never said buff maxim is op or mg42 is up
What i want to remind is some love can be given to mg42 mid-late game performance, simply since allies infantry blob scales beyond mg42 intention. Maxim got free love now, when is mg42?


the maxim is THE WORST mg ingame... and even with the anti blob buff it is still THE WORST mg ingame... which by the way ostheer already had massive buffs to the faction with the 20% DR for grens at vet 3... lets see how the change affects ost performance first before deciding there...

and in any case if anything in ostheer needs a buff it is most definitely NOT the MG-42
17 Sep 2019, 09:11 AM
#107
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 08:46 AMgbem


the maxim is THE WORST mg ingame... and even with the anti blob buff it is still THE WORST mg ingame... which by the way ostheer already had massive buffs to the faction with the 20% DR for grens at vet 3... lets see how the change affects ost performance first before deciding there...

and in any case if anything in ostheer needs a buff it is most definitely NOT the MG-42


Well it makes them worse against MG's, because it's RA and not health damage that affects suppression taken afaik. But that's a small payoff for increased survivability against explosives, of course.

For the Maxim itself, I think it just needs slightly increased base suppression to the point it's viable but not spammable. Currently I'd say its vet 0/1 suppression is slightly below that point (without using the ability that is). 2/3 star Maxim is pretty great though.
17 Sep 2019, 09:26 AM
#108
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

i would just swap the dshk and maxim tbh... having the maxim as doctrinal allows it to support penals in penal builds without a T2 sidetech while a dedicated T2 build can have the much stronger DSHK supporting it
17 Sep 2019, 11:27 AM
#109
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783


You seem to be having a really hard time understanding this... Reducing the crew number on the maxim will only make death loop worse. You can try it with every combo of numbers less than now and the deathloop won't be fixed, oh quite the opposite! It will be worse! 5 models is 1 less model to die before being wiped, 1 less model to share damage meaning more concentrated DPS meaning more likely TO START a deathloop.

The only way I could see a man reduction is if somehow the gunner alone can have a damage reduction so that they won't be dropped constantly

It was less of an issue I'd like to add before flame nade throwing, assault rifle volks were added to the fold...


I mentioned this on another post I will mention this again.


I think in order to make Maxim good at the same time as avoiding the "Spam" of this unit is to do the following.

#the buff it needs

-To Increase Surpression to the way MG34 and somewhat inferior to see. Maxim already has the benefit of shooting for longer consistent periods (more than even MG34 does), would make up for a very strong MG suppressing platform.


#the nerf to avoid spamming

-Increase Set up time for un-deploying, set it as any regular MG. It is already 6 man durable (but I will get to the point of avoiding deathloop). Set up time is a factor for this favourable spam. That why I suggest nerfing it.

-Possibly even make it 5 man (if necessary) because the huge durability is another reason for the spam.


#avoid deathloop

-Buff RA when it un-deploys as mentioned and make it un-deploy/lift the MG quickly more like "twice as fast than it is now" in order to get a head start in retreating. Since it already has the downside of needing to pick it up after the model carrying it gets shot.


#trenches idea

-It sounds interesting but I think that is personally what either Engineers or Conscripts should have instead. Even then, it might even decline the incentive to make Maxim an even proper MG to have the ability to build cover while other dont. Personally, I would think it be best to focus on more vital elements such as its performance and viability. Having Defensive's would further hinder it from improving possibly, I imagine.

Lets see how this all goes
17 Sep 2019, 14:55 PM
#110
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

just make maxim mg34 clone. boring if that is what you want.
i dont know, i seen maxim plays really effective. eh just dont use it like axis mg...
17 Sep 2019, 18:34 PM
#111
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 14:55 PMmrgame2
just make maxim mg34 clone. boring if that is what you want.
i dont know, i seen maxim plays really effective. eh just dont use it like axis mg...


Then they should not have tried to make it like an axis mg without ap rounds.

The old maxim was mobile fast. But lacking in supression if any. But was suposed to be about dps. Its arc however so small inf could walk out of it with no model dropping.
It just added dps to cons wich was very very poor. And the maxim needed baby sitting.

Then they added supression. This combined with its mobility made it broken op. Its golden days. Replacing inf completly. And keeping new volks in check.

Now its mobility is severely nerfed and people have trauma,s that it could surpress.
If it could supress it wont be spammed imo, its mobility was gutted.
17 Sep 2019, 18:49 PM
#112
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

Well it makes them worse against MG's, because it's RA and not health damage that affects suppression taken afaik


Suppression is determined only by the weapon's suppression per bullet and its ROF. Basically it's just (ROF at range X * suppression per bullet). It needs to reach the threshold of 0.2, at which squad in the open becomes suppressed.

Additionally light and heavy cover give suppression resistance (I believe technically the amount of suppression required goes up). Only some abilities (Fire Up!) or bulletins (Volks -10% received suppression) can further influence suppression.

A squad's target size (/RA) does not matter, nor does the accuracy of the weapon.
17 Sep 2019, 19:38 PM
#113
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Then they should not have tried to make it like an axis mg without ap rounds.

The old maxim was mobile fast. But lacking in supression if any. But was suposed to be about dps. Its arc however so small inf could walk out of it with no model dropping.
It just added dps to cons wich was very very poor. And the maxim needed baby sitting.

Then they added supression. This combined with its mobility made it broken op. Its golden days. Replacing inf completly. And keeping new volks in check.

Now its mobility is severely nerfed and people have trauma,s that it could surpress.
If it could supress it wont be spammed imo, its mobility was gutted.

Maxim has replaced infantry since its inception because at no point in the game have cons really beeen in a position that it was worth getting them and/over a maxim when you just paid 160mp to unlock the maxim

But of an overhaul here but hear me out:
Cons become passively cheaper once a building is built but t1 and 2 become a 20mp more expensive

T1 makes cons a bit cheaper to reinforce to promote using them to supplement penals. Penals are in exchange made slightly more expensive per man

T2 gives cons a cover bonus that gives a bonus against suppressed units so that they might be used in conjunction with the maxim as dps. Maxim can be adjusted to be less independent
17 Sep 2019, 19:40 PM
#114
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



Suppression is determined only by the weapon's suppression per bullet and its ROF. Basically it's just (ROF at range X * suppression per bullet). It needs to reach the threshold of 0.2, at which squad in the open becomes suppressed.

Additionally light and heavy cover give suppression resistance (I believe technically the amount of suppression required goes up). Only some abilities (Fire Up!) or bulletins (Volks -10% received suppression) can further influence suppression.

A squad's target size (/RA) does not matter, nor does the accuracy of the weapon.


Are you sure? Check the other thread.

AoE suppression seems to apply to the individual squad it is targeting as well.

I just run some tests now, and squad with higher received accuracy and same amount of models also get suppressed in different amount of times.
17 Sep 2019, 22:45 PM
#115
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289


Maxim has replaced infantry since its inception because at no point in the game have cons really beeen in a position that it was worth getting them and/over a maxim when you just paid 160mp to unlock the maxim

But of an overhaul here but hear me out:
Cons become passively cheaper once a building is built but t1 and 2 become a 20mp more expensive

T1 makes cons a bit cheaper to reinforce to promote using them to supplement penals. Penals are in exchange made slightly more expensive per man

T2 gives cons a cover bonus that gives a bonus against suppressed units so that they might be used in conjunction with the maxim as dps. Maxim can be adjusted to be less independent


In my experience now the maxim is not independent. It needs more baby sitting then most mg,s. The cause is its lacking supression, direct and aoe. It allows frontal deathlooping way to often.

I like the suggestion of cons have an aura for maxims. That increase it supression but that leaves the fact that you pay 260mp 240mp 160mp and 15fu just to have it supress reliably. It wound,t be cost effective what so ever.

Right now i avoid the maxim when ever i can. It gets deathlooped a lot and feels like it tickels the target. Its mediocre at best for a premium price.
I mostly go for duska doctrines. I get 1 usualy and 2 max. And they do the job but the cost is in line with its performance.

Again the maxims mobilty was gutted. Just let it supress it cant come close to it golden days.
18 Sep 2019, 00:19 AM
#116
avatar of cochosgo

Posts: 301

Maxim is fine. If you have troubles as okw get a kubel to get sight. The thing still needs to engage from as much distance as posible to guarantee effective supression. Which is fine by me. Its not a unit that can do its work on its own.

Its no longer a useless mg, and its ability, if used with vision and anticipation its a good tool.
18 Sep 2019, 10:38 AM
#117
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

Maxim is fine. If you have troubles as okw get a kubel to get sight. The thing still needs to engage from as much distance as posible to guarantee effective supression. Which is fine by me. Its not a unit that can do its work on its own.

Its no longer a useless mg, and its ability, if used with vision and anticipation its a good tool.


Ps its single unit suppression is unchanged... its still the worst mg ingame for some dumb reason
18 Sep 2019, 11:38 AM
#118
avatar of GuyFromTheSky

Posts: 229

I just played against a maxim spammer, got an ISG and two falls and it was game over for him.
18 Sep 2019, 11:48 AM
#119
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

What i love most about maxim spammers is the free salvage... each maxim he makes means +5 fuel for me
18 Sep 2019, 11:54 AM
#120
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 11:48 AMgbem
What i love most about maxim spammers is the free salvage... each maxim he makes means +5 fuel for me[/quote its literally worth more as scrap than it is as an mg....


The 6 man squad needs to be treated as a Soviet bonus (and reflected in price not performance) so that it is still possible to use as a non Soviet faction should you get the chance to cap one.
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