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russian armor

Kriegsbeute Doctrine

8 Sep 2019, 20:48 PM
#1
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4589

This is mostly just a fantasy post, since I am 4-5 months late to the table and no more Doctrines are being added. Nevertheless, it was fun to think up, and uses all existing assets and concepts.

Kriegsbeute Doctrine



Advanced Osttruppen



Armed with Conscript Mosin-Nagants, these Advanced Osttruppen can suppliment or replace standard Grenadiers. Can be upgraded with captured SVT-40's once any tech building has been constructed.

MP717(r) Assault Grenadiers



Assault Grenadiers with captured PPSh's are available to supplement the Osttruppen.

Panzergrenadier Repair Kit



Panzergrenadiers can now assist in repairing armored vehicles and fortifications.

Beutepanzer T-34/76



Throughout the war large numbers of T-34 tanks were captured by the German Army. This Beutepanzer (Trophy Tank) may be deployed from Headquarters once the Support Armor Korps or Battle Phase 3 has been completed.

15.2 cm KH.433/1(r)



The German Army captured hundreds of ML-20, and turned them against their former masters. Numerous and effective, the Wehrmacht even began manufacturing new ammunition for these guns when captured stores began to run out.
8 Sep 2019, 20:55 PM
#2
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

Man, forget about T34, lets bring up a scavenged KV2!
8 Sep 2019, 21:57 PM
#3
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
Mobile def can use t34 to replace puma since the doc is crap now.
9 Sep 2019, 15:53 PM
#4
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 276

I had a similar commander idea in my mind, tho it would have combined outdated german and stolen soviet equipment, such as it would contain panzerbüchse AT packages for grenadiers, pioneers, or the short barrel Stug E.
9 Sep 2019, 17:38 PM
#5
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 362 | Subs: 1

The T-34 in-game has armor skirts available, but are unused. Those were added by the Germans and would be a perfect fit for a German T-34.

I don't think any sane person would steal a Mosin, though...
9 Sep 2019, 17:47 PM
#6
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1635 | Subs: 3

Why do you need a Soviet howitzer? The German is much better - I would even say OP: it has better accuracy, rate of fire and just super OP 1st veteran ability.
And having two infantry units in one commander is a very bad decision. I think one ability is enough - "East Front veterans" which gives 5 people to the Grenadiers and SVT-40.
9 Sep 2019, 18:45 PM
#7
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 682

The ppsh and svt upgrade can be put in as
two exclusive upgrade package for a single unit. For example, gren, can chose between 2-3 ppsh with sprint or 3 svt with + 1 man, both lockout mg42.
9 Sep 2019, 23:08 PM
#8
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2741 | Subs: 2

I agree with Crecer, I think a captured HM-38 120mm mortar would be better than the howitzer.

Also to add to what Roastin said, the Germans also welded on Panzer III and Panzer IV commander cupolas to the top of the turret as well on captured T-34s:

9 Sep 2019, 23:51 PM
#9
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 558

We need KV8 and B4!
10 Sep 2019, 01:02 AM
#10
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4589

The T-34 in-game has armor skirts available, but are unused. Those were added by the Germans and would be a perfect fit for a German T-34.

I don't think any sane person would steal a Mosin, though...

Is there any way to see this, or could you post an image? That's very interesting. If it's schurzen-style it would make a perfect Vet 2 bonus if the tank using Ostheer Medium Tank veterancy instead of Soviet Medium Tank veterancy.

As for the Mosins, Germany captured them in massive quantities, they must've had over a million of the things, though I don't know what use they made of them outside of arming the Volkssturm. But my reasoning for Mosin-Nagants is twofold: the Conscript Mosin-Nagant is stronger than the Osttruppen Kar98 which is fitting for the "Advanced Osttruppen", and using Russian rifles fits the theme of the Doctrine; the theme of capture equipment.


Why do you need a Soviet howitzer? The German is much better - I would even say OP: it has better accuracy, rate of fire and just super OP 1st veteran ability.
And having two infantry units in one commander is a very bad decision. I think one ability is enough - "East Front veterans" which gives 5 people to the Grenadiers and SVT-40.

The Soviet Howitzer is because large numbers of them were in use by the Germans, it being bad is a balance problem unrelated to this suggestion, and should be rectified on it's own.

The reason for 2 Infantry units is I wanted to use both the SVT and PPSh, but the SVT alone is only marginally better than the Grenadier's K98, and worse at range. They'd only really be worth it if equipped on a larger squad, so I had the idea of giving them to an "Elite Osttruppen" unit, which itself sounded like a comical idea, so of course I did that.

For PPSh's Grenadiers do not have the durability to make good use of them even if they're the Shock Troop version, and if you add an extra man then it's basically Assault Grenadiers, so I just cut out the extra step and added Assault Grenadiers.

Now that you mention it, I can't think of any doctrine that comes with 2 Infantry units, excluding Officers. Except Partisans, but that's their entire purpose. I'm not sure what the best balance could be here.


I agree with Crecer, I think a captured HM-38 120mm mortar would be better than the howitzer.

Also to add to what Roastin said, the Germans also welded on Panzer III and Panzer IV commander cupolas to the top of the turret as well on captured T-34s:


The main reason I didn't go with something like the HM-38 is because 2/5 abilities were already call-ins, the ML-20 was the last ability I added and I wanted to avoid any other call-in units. Had it not been for the recent changes to call-in tanks, I would have been at 3/5 call-ins already.

As for the remodel I'm aware of that, but I was trying to utilize only existing assets when coming up with this. That said I'm very interested in what Roastin has to say about that extra armor.
10 Sep 2019, 01:55 AM
#11
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 495 | Subs: 1

The T-34 in-game has armor skirts available, but are unused. Those were added by the Germans and would be a perfect fit for a German T-34.

I don't think any sane person would steal a Mosin, though...


Actually a whole bunch of captured Mosin-Nagant rifles were used alongside captured DP-28s. They used the same ammo, many of the Ostruppen were once in the Red Army so they would’ve been trained on Mosin-Nagants and DP-28s and since they were generally employed in a supporting/rear area role the ammunition resupply was not a big issue since ammunition expenditure was expected to be minimal. This allowed the Germans to avoid retraining Ostruppen “volunteers” (some were willing, some were not) with new equipment and gave a use to captured gear.

I fully support this new commander idea, but I also think ALL Ostruppen should use Mosin-Nagant rifles and be upgradeable to have one “Captured LMG”. The captured LMG upgrade would be a random BAR, BREN, or DP-28. This would represent the many captured and reissued weapons the Germans captured in Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Russia, namely the wz.1928 (Polish BAR variant), ZB-26 (Czech LMG that would become the BREN) and DP-28.

Make Ostruppen “Ost” again!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_wz._1928

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZB_vz._26

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/542191242612020749/
10 Sep 2019, 09:26 AM
#12
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2741 | Subs: 2


Is there any way to see this, or could you post an image? That's very interesting. If it's schurzen-style it would make a perfect Vet 2 bonus if the tank using Ostheer Medium Tank veterancy instead of Soviet Medium Tank veterancy.

As for the Mosins, Germany captured them in massive quantities, they must've had over a million of the things, though I don't know what use they made of them outside of arming the Volkssturm. But my reasoning for Mosin-Nagants is twofold: the Conscript Mosin-Nagant is stronger than the Osttruppen Kar98 which is fitting for the "Advanced Osttruppen", and using Russian rifles fits the theme of the Doctrine; the theme of capture equipment.



The Soviet Howitzer is because large numbers of them were in use by the Germans, it being bad is a balance problem unrelated to this suggestion, and should be rectified on it's own.

The reason for 2 Infantry units is I wanted to use both the SVT and PPSh, but the SVT alone is only marginally better than the Grenadier's K98, and worse at range. They'd only really be worth it if equipped on a larger squad, so I had the idea of giving them to an "Elite Osttruppen" unit, which itself sounded like a comical idea, so of course I did that.

For PPSh's Grenadiers do not have the durability to make good use of them even if they're the Shock Troop version, and if you add an extra man then it's basically Assault Grenadiers, so I just cut out the extra step and added Assault Grenadiers.

Now that you mention it, I can't think of any doctrine that comes with 2 Infantry units, excluding Officers. Except Partisans, but that's their entire purpose. I'm not sure what the best balance could be here.



The main reason I didn't go with something like the HM-38 is because 2/5 abilities were already call-ins, the ML-20 was the last ability I added and I wanted to avoid any other call-in units. Had it not been for the recent changes to call-in tanks, I would have been at 3/5 call-ins already.

As for the remodel I'm aware of that, but I was trying to utilize only existing assets when coming up with this. That said I'm very interested in what Roastin has to say about that extra armor.


You can see the captured T-34 with armored skirts in the All Units Mod.

Only problem is that them seem to be a bit floating, as in they're not "attached" to the tank like the Panther ones.

But in all honesty you need to zoom in all of the way down to the model to notice it.
10 Sep 2019, 09:34 AM
#13
avatar of SneakEye
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 627 | Subs: 3

Is there any way to see this, or could you post an image? That's very interesting.

11 Sep 2019, 00:47 AM
#14
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 362 | Subs: 1

Huh, TIL about the captured Mosins. I had only heard of PPShs captured in large quantities.

The easiest way to see the skirts is in the worldbuilder, or, would have been, but SneakEye has us covered; thanks!
11 Sep 2019, 00:48 AM
#15
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4589

You can see the captured T-34 with armored skirts in the All Units Mod.



Damnit, that's awesome. It's a huge shame it's not used anywhere in the game. Especially considering Soviets have a goddamn million doctrines and they not one of them have these. I'd love to see a special Red Banner T-34-85 with that hull and armor.
11 Sep 2019, 07:19 AM
#16
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2741 | Subs: 2



Damnit, that's awesome. It's a huge shame it's not used anywhere in the game. Especially considering Soviets have a goddamn million doctrines and they not one of them have these. I'd love to see a special Red Banner T-34-85 with that hull and armor.


As far as I'm aware it's what the Germans did only but I'm not 100% sure so don't quote me on it. Soviets didn't really care to put in much effort since they had a lot of them, Germans tried to improve their effectiveness.

Plus if you just Google for captured T-34s you'll see a lot with either Armored Skirts or the PzIII/IV commander cupola like I mentioned but only models with both sadly.

P.S.

Speaking of German T34s, you might wanna Google for VK3002 or DB Panther, you'll see something very interesting.
13 Sep 2019, 23:21 PM
#17
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4589

As far as I'm aware it's what the Germans did only but I'm not 100% sure so don't quote me on it. Soviets didn't really care to put in much effort since they had a lot of them, Germans tried to improve their effectiveness.

Plus if you just Google for captured T-34s you'll see a lot with either Armored Skirts or the PzIII/IV commander cupola like I mentioned but only models with both sadly.

P.S.

Speaking of German T34s, you might wanna Google for VK3002 or DB Panther, you'll see something very interesting.


Yeah as far as I know, the Armored Skirts were a German addition, which would be the perfect Vet 2 bonus for this doctrine's tank. There's something on the back too which could have been used, not sure what it is though. Always a shame to see good assets like that go to waste.

And I've seen that Panther before, it always amused me how closely they followed the T-34's design with that prototype, rather than the more familiar design they ultimately chose!

14 Sep 2019, 23:45 PM
#18
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2741 | Subs: 2



Yeah as far as I know, the Armored Skirts were a German addition, which would be the perfect Vet 2 bonus for this doctrine's tank. There's something on the back too which could have been used, not sure what it is though. Always a shame to see good assets like that go to waste.

And I've seen that Panther before, it always amused me how closely they followed the T-34's design with that prototype, rather than the more familiar design they ultimately chose!



A lot of people actually believe, me being one of them before a long time ago, that both the Tiger and Panther were direct answers to the T-34 and KV-1 the German forces met on the Eastern Front but the truth is farther away from that.

The Germans as you've probably noticed had several "generations" of tanks so to speak. First was the Panzer I and II, then was the III and IV, and then was the Tiger and Panther, last generation was the King Tiger and would have been the Lowë had they not dropped it in favor of the bigger and heavier Maus which was just wrong in my opinion.

Anyhow, the Tiger was basically first envisioned as a heavier "breakthrough" tank that was supposed to smash enemy lines and allow the smaller and faster tanks (Panzer IIIs and IVs) to exploit said breakthrough. Panther was just the next generational replacement for said faster tanks that would exploit the heavy tank's breakthrough.

The Germans already met several tanks that outclassed theirs (French Char B1, British Matilda 2) that were already impervious to most German guns at the time save for the 88 which was first ever used against enemy tanks by Rommel in the Blitzkrieg of France I believe. They had nothing else to use so he ordered his 7th Panzer Division's 88 battery detachment to setup on a ridge with good sight lines and start firing on the enemy tanks. They also used their superior tactics and training, as well as radios (few Allied tanks had radios at that time) and overcame them.

So the whole myth of the KV-1 and T-34 sparking development of the Tiger and Panther is false. It's impossible for them to meet these 2 tanks in 1941 for the first time ever, examine them, think of something better, agree to the specs and so forth, setup production lines and actually start making them all in the time frame of an year, that's just impossible, even for the efficient standards of the Germans.

Truth is these "projects" let's just call them started back in the 30s, with several companies providing several prototype vehicles for each. I won't go into detail but in short, the Tiger had around 4 and so did the Panther, with 2 for each making it to the final vehicle exams where the final vehicles were basically chosen.

For the Tiger it was Porsche against Henschel, for the Panther was Daimler Benz (Mercedes nowadays) vs MAN.

Hitler also played a large part in the development of these as it seems like to me that every time they encountered something bigger and better than their tanks he ordered that bigger guns and more armor was added to these tanks, so that's how the Tiger went from 30 tons, to 36 and finally to 60, and the Panther from the same 30 to 50, of course they're not exact but I'm just making them out as exact numbers so it's easier to understand.

That arms race between Germany and the Soviets is basically why we also ended up with the IS-2, T-34/85, ISU series and stuff like the Jagdpanther, King Tiger and Jagdtiger. There was basically nothing that could withstand the firepower of the Ferdinand's long barrel 88 L71 gun at Kurks in 1943.
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