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Soviet September patch discussion

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18 Aug 2019, 19:45 PM
#301
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919

cons - t2 - t3 - t70 = 10 fuel cheaper. Did you even read what i wrote?

Why would you back tech t1 when you already have t2 and t3 up? for a 10 min m3? you dont see it cause it doesnt make sense. t2 back tech with penals makes sense for the at guns and mgs.

All im asking for is to not tripple buff con builds, they are strong enough - especially considering the okw nerfs


I can give this back: Did you even read what I wrote?

I said T1 and T2 timing pf T70 is now the same. i said: "It just doesn't matter now if you build T1 or T2 first, timing is the same."

Yeah that means that T70 is 10 fuel faster when you go Cons+T2>T3 and such as fast as T1>T3 was always. But this is not entirely true, because you will have a hard time to fend off fast vehicle/tank play without the AT grenade, when you have to rely on ZIS only. If he flanks you well you are nailed. So you will most probably build the AT-grenade sidetech to help out your ZIS with the cons. Still penals into T3 has the T70 as fast as T2 without AT-grenade. And we all now penal build into T70 is insanely popular. This patch tries to give an alternative. And in the end T70 isn't faster on the map as you will see it atm in most matches.
18 Aug 2019, 20:03 PM
#302
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2019, 19:27 PMgbem


https://www.coh2.org/topic/94292/what-do-people-think-of-conscripts-after-the-patch



How many on there are actually top players with all factions like creativename? :snfBarton:

I agree with creativename, hold back changes to 7 men cons timing for now and wait how the meta develops after patch. The 7 men upgrade makes conscripts not only win most fights against upgraded Grens and Volks, but also makes them crazy cost efficient at it. It should stay a late game upgrade imo.

I see most players at my level going good old conscript builds again, atleast versus my Ostheer. Players like 4res, PGA, orangepest, etc.
18 Aug 2019, 20:04 PM
#303
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



I can give this back: Did you even read what I wrote?

I said T1 and T2 timing pf T70 is now the same. i said: "It just doesn't matter now if you build T1 or T2 first, timing is the same."

Yeah that means that T70 is 10 fuel faster when you go Cons+T2>T3 and such as fast as T1>T3 was always. But this is not entirely true, because you will have a hard time to fend off fast vehicle/tank play without the AT grenade, when you have to rely on ZIS only. If he flanks you well you are nailed. So you will most probably build the AT-grenade sidetech to help out your ZIS with the cons. Still penals into T3 has the T70 as fast as T2 without AT-grenade. And we all now penal build into T70 is insanely popular. This patch tries to give an alternative. And in the end T70 isn't faster on the map as you will see it atm in most matches.

Also t2+ cons means using cons and maxims we all know how fantastic a combo that makes...

Can't shoot and can't suppress team up one more time in "pay the same as them but get much worse units the prequel"
18 Aug 2019, 20:11 PM
#304
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919


Also t2+ cons means using cons and maxims we all know how fantastic a combo that makes...

Can't shoot and can't suppress team up one more time in "pay the same as them but get much worse units the prequel"


You summed it up perfectly. Better than I could have ;)

Even with 10 fuel T2 building reduction you'll see the penal builds. Its not the fuel, its about the performance of the units in T2 in comparison to T1.
18 Aug 2019, 20:12 PM
#305
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



How many on there are actually top players with all factions like creativename? :snfBarton:

I agree with creativename, hold back changes to 7 men cons timing for now and wait how the meta develops after patch. The 7 men upgrade makes conscripts not only win most fights against upgraded Grens and Volks, but also makes them crazy cost efficient at it. It should stay a late game upgrade imo.


Id think penals being too effective may be half the reason for this logic... but T2 and conscript centric builds do not have the luxury of penals to support them...

Id rather tone down the penal instead to give the spotlight to T2/conscript centric builds aswell...

For someone that abandoned penals (since i found em cheesy)... these changes would allow the conscript centric/t2 oriented builds to compete much more efficiently... all we need now are some penal changes
18 Aug 2019, 20:18 PM
#306
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 568 | Subs: 1



How many on there are actually top players with all factions like creativename? :snfBarton:

I agree with creativename, hold back changes to 7 men cons timing for now and wait how the meta develops after patch. The 7 men upgrade makes conscripts not only win most fights against upgraded Grens and Volks, but also makes them crazy cost efficient at it. It should stay a late game upgrade imo.

I see most players at my level going good old conscript builds again, atleast versus my Ostheer. Players like 4res, PGA, orangepest, etc.


Pretty much yeah, cons are just better lategame in every aspect compared to penals, are less averse to LVH rape with at nades and guarantee a t2 which menas zis walls, not only that but 7 man cons trade way to well to the point where you have no bleed and can do retard engagements and get away with minor manpower loses, frequently once several cons are 7-man you end up with excess manpower and can easily just pump out t34s. its ridicolous

Cons either lose the 7th man, the coverfirate bonus, or the reinforce cost. because as it stands it /cannot/ be allowed to have all three.
18 Aug 2019, 20:27 PM
#307
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

Those that suggest nerfing cons prolly havent done T2/cons oriented builds... or are using conscripts to support penals...(in which case they do just fine)

In either case taking the penal out of the equation will highlight the deficiency of the conscript... even with 7 men


Tldr stop trying to nerf the conscript...
Fix the penal instead
18 Aug 2019, 20:50 PM
#308
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281

Atleast half of the 1v1 Top10 uses conscripts at the moment, they are viable. I dont know about 3v3/4v4 and i honestly dont care.
I dont want to nerf cons but any additional buff might push them over the top.
Dunno why you would complain about the maxim too, it does its job at supressing, is very durable thanks to 6man crew and mobile. It deserves its small buff imo.
Overall Soviets have the best combined arms imo, doesnt matter if you use cons or penals

Buffing con builds while nerfing okw wont end very well
18 Aug 2019, 20:59 PM
#309
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

Atleast half of the 1v1 Top10 uses conscripts at the moment, they are viable. I dont know about 3v3/4v4 and i honestly dont care.
I dont want to nerf cons but any additional buff might push them over the top.
Dunno why you would complain about the maxim too, it does its job at supressing, is very durable thanks to 6man crew and mobile. It deserves its small buff imo.
Overall Soviets have the best combined arms imo, doesnt matter if you use cons or penals

Buffing con builds while nerfing okw wont end very well


Last tourney people either used penals or conscripts with doctrinal weapon upgrades (svt or ppsh)... i didnt see people using stock cons at all...

As for the maxim its the worst mg ingame by stats so far... and its only redeeming quality is superceded by its vulnerability to the death loop...
18 Aug 2019, 21:09 PM
#310
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281

which Tourney are you talking about? In the 2v2 tourney scotch for example used stock cons to great effect
Edit: most player used penals tho, thats true
The last 1v1 Tourney, the one with commander bans was Brit vs OKW only
18 Aug 2019, 21:15 PM
#311
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

The last 1v1 tourney ive seen mostly involved penals openings though... thats not to say conscript openings are useless... but they are generally disadvantaged against the more cost efficient volksgrenadier... or even wehrmacht unless they outclass their opponent...

They can be used to great effect but its more of an uphill battle as opposed to a penal opener... especially when everyone gets their weapon upgrades while you dont get yours until T4...


Hence the switch to T3 is good for the nonmeta builds (stock cons/t2)... all thats really needed now is to tone down the core of the meta build to compensate (penals)
18 Aug 2019, 21:27 PM
#312
avatar of DevM
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 409 | Subs: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2019, 21:15 PMgbem
The last 1v1 tourney ive seen mostly involved penals openings though... thats not to say conscript openings are useless... but they are generally disadvantaged against the more cost efficient volksgrenadier... or even wehrmacht unless they outclass their opponent...

They can be used to great effect but its more of an uphill battle as opposed to a penal opener... especially when everyone gets their weapon upgrades while you dont get yours until T4...


Hence the switch to T3 is good for the nonmeta builds (stock cons/t2)... all thats really needed now is to tone down the core of the meta build to compensate (penals)


The last 1v1 tourney you saw mostly involved penal openings because it was literally the only thing that worked against OKW due to the M3. Things are fine as they are right now, cons and penals are both in a nice spot imo.
18 Aug 2019, 21:35 PM
#313
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2019, 21:27 PMDevM


The last 1v1 tourney you saw mostly involved penal openings because it was literally the only thing that worked against OKW due to the M3. Things are fine as they are right now, cons and penals are both in a nice spot imo.


Are you referring to the patch? Or in their current state? If it is the latter... then afaik volks/sturms/stock cons remained untouched for quite a long time...which has always been a losing fight for stock cons... especially vs stg volks... and 7 man cons comes waay to late to save the game at T4

Not sure how the volks nerfs change this dynamic though... but do note that lmg grens and stg volks still come earlier than 7 man cons even at T3
19 Aug 2019, 00:21 AM
#314
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2019, 21:35 PMgbem


Are you referring to the patch? Or in their current state? If it is the latter... then afaik volks/sturms/stock cons remained untouched for quite a long time...which has always been a losing fight for stock cons... especially vs stg volks... and 7 man cons comes waay to late to save the game at T4

Not sure how the volks nerfs change this dynamic though... but do note that lmg grens and stg volks still come earlier than 7 man cons even at T3

And the changes to volks certainly don't do shit all to help cons being trash vs them. The price difference now means that the first con model that drops is free, which is great for setting the stage for all the conscript models the volks will effortlessly reap.
19 Aug 2019, 01:52 AM
#315
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

The StG is what causes Cons to get smashed by volks. It's not an awful matchup before that. So the change to 260mp means little for that matchup
19 Aug 2019, 11:31 AM
#316
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

new KV1 is so bullsh***.

it wins vs panther when sitting like a duck in the sand...and have 40% life after killing it.

it isnt only the fact that this cheap tank win vs panther while has good AI...no...its the combination from:

- good armor
- good HP / dmg mulitply.
- DUCKING IN BY ITSELF (compare this with the ost variant: u need a pio/ pgren sqaud to do this...and this need a loong time. the kv1 is quasi instant a concrete defense bunker


imagine the following:

building 1-2 Kv1...drive into the enemy base (OKW bases loves this tip) and ducking in and destroy the whole base ...because you are faster destroying OKW base than will be destroyed.


can we pls stop making such Bs unit in this game? its like a moving fortress which need TWO panthers to be killed!
19 Aug 2019, 11:33 AM
#317
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

Did u compare it to a hulldown panther aswell? Or just the non hulldown panther?
19 Aug 2019, 11:35 AM
#318
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Aug 2019, 11:33 AMgbem
Did u compare it to a hulldown panther aswell? Or just the non hulldown panther?



while the KV1 could attack and duck in by itself into the panthers range...the pio which want to duck in a panther will be killed by the Kv1 when the panther would try such tactic.

so a kv1 can attack any panther and duck in...a panther cannot..it must wait till some would attack the panther....a kv1 can attack your base and uck in and will last lang enough to destroy important things.
19 Aug 2019, 12:08 PM
#319
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

i see it coming: 4 players go heavy KV1 spam and play moving fortress into the enemy base...while backuped by B4 and shocks
19 Aug 2019, 12:11 PM
#320
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

new KV1 is so bullsh***.

it wins vs panther when sitting like a duck in the sand...and have 40% life after killing it


What exactly is this based on? The one incredibly wonky test result in Tightrope's video in which a Panther didn't use its range advantage and the KV-1 got ridiculously lucky penetration RNG?
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