Against okw I could buy your argument but ostheer you see a lot of tier 3 play, and Panthers are something you get much later down the road when players have excess fuel to throw around.
The problem with the StuG is role, and right now it's a weird cross between the su76 and the puma without the strengths of either(long range, turret, low cost, early tech). By reducing its potency but also reducing its cost you let it fill the cost niche that the ostheer doesn't have atm- the 50-80 fuel range.
Against okw I could buy your argument but ostheer you see a lot of tier 3 play, and Panthers are something you get much later down the road when players have excess fuel to throw around.
The problem with the StuG is role, and right now it's a weird cross between the su76 and the puma without the strengths of either(long range, turret, low cost, early tech). By reducing its potency but also reducing its cost you let it fill the cost niche that the ostheer doesn't have atm- the 50-80 fuel range.
Without strengths? You could got it early than any ally medium arrive on field. For more early AT you could use shrecks, or ATG.
Without strengths? You could got it early than any ally medium arrive on field. For more early AT you could use shrecks, or ATG.
You can get the puma out earlier than any axis medium, you can also get the su76 earlier than any axis medium. At least the stug wouldn't come THAT much earlier than the standard timing for a medium tank.
The strength of the stug with my proposed changes would be you still get the same advantages it currently has over infantry based AT- not being vulnerable to small arms and more mobile, and you can buy it as a "supplement" rather then having to spend 3/4's of a medium tank. It still outranges standard mediums and has adequate penetration for its cost, as well as its durability. It won't scale if the enemy fields super heavies but then it would be 70-75 fuel, no vehicle in that price range does.
You can get the puma out earlier than any axis medium, you can also get the su76 earlier than any axis medium. At least the stug wouldn't come THAT much earlier than the standard timing for a medium tank.
About Su-76 - yes you can, but how much you see soviets who bought instead t-70 su-76 (i even ask you how much you even saw su-76) as first LV? And don't forget that su-76 can't be great enemy to your medium. It still needs 6 shots to kill it without vet and 5 with vet, if they could penetrate of course. It hardcounter only to other LV (puma, p2, halftrucks). Regular zis will be much more danger for your medium (adn could be builde much more earlier).
About Puma - yes you can, current OKW meta p2+puma to counter t-70 and save field pressure. But it still LV.
About Stug - Only if you make from stug LV like these 2. I think you agree that LV and regular TD are quite different things? From one side - cheap cost, but low damage, low penetration, lack of health. From other side - more higher cost (15 fuel IMHO, it not so much in comparsion with su-76), but more armor, more health, more damage and penteration.
About Su-76 - yes you can, but how much you see soviets who bought instead t-70 su-76 (i even ask you how much you even saw su-76) as first LV? And don't forget that su-76 can't be great enemy to your medium. It still needs 6 shots to kill it without vet and 5 with vet, if they could penetrate of course. It hardcounter only to other LV (puma, p2, halftrucks). Regular zis will be much more danger for your medium (adn could be builde much more earlier).
About Puma - yes you can, current OKW meta p2+puma to counter t-70 and save field pressure. But it still LV.
About Stug - Only if you make from stug LV like these 2. I think you agree that LV and regular TD are quite different things? From one side - cheap cost, but low damage, low penetration, lack of health. From other side - more higher cost (15 fuel IMHO, it not so much in comparsion with su-76), but more armor, more health, more damage and penteration.
Well proposed changes include nerf to stug rate of fire and nerf to stug penetration. This would mean stug has less penetration than su76 and less damage per second, but more single shot damage and more durable. Maybe you did not read my proposed change except for fuel cost reduction.
Well proposed changes include nerf to stug rate of fire and nerf to stug penetration. This would mean stug has less penetration than su76 and less damage per second, but more single shot damage and more durable. Maybe you did not read my proposed change except for fuel cost reduction.
Let's look to some digits:
Damage per Shot * Chance to penetrate / time or reload
For stug (far pen of stug 140, that means chance to pen ally medium 87.5%):
160 * 0.875 / 6= 140/6=23,3
For Su-76 (far pen of su-76 160, that means chance to pen p4 with 160 armor equal 100%):
120 * 1 / 3.9 =30
In vet 0 SU-76 have advantage.
For stug:
160 * 0.875 / 6= 140/6=23,3
For su-76 vet 2 (default damage become 140 instead 120)
140*(140/234 (armor of p4 on vet2) ) /2.9 = 33
Replace values of reload with veterancy and we will see whole picture. I used the smallest time of reload as value.
Chance to penetrate on far still pretty high (140/160=87.5%). Don't forget that ally mediums don't got armor with vet, that means that stug with vet will be more potent than su-76. While their cost still the same (75), effective dps of stug will be higher than for su-76 (when p4 got 2 vet and armor skirts, su-76 will be in downside position).
Let's look to some digits:
Damage per Shot * Chance to penetrane / time or reload
For stug (far pen of stug 140, that means chance to pen ally medium 87.5%):
160 * 0.875 / 6= 140/6=23,3
For Su-76 (far pen of su-76 160, that means chance to pen p4 with 160 armor equal 100%):
120 * 1 / 4,5 = 26,6
In vet 0 SU-76 have small advantage.
But picture drastically changes with vet of TD and vet of medium. I don't know which ROF bonuses stug and su-76 got with vet, that i will be use default values.
For stug:
160 * 0.875 / 6= 140/6=23,3
For su-76 vet 2 (default damage become 140 instead 120)
140*(140/234 (armor of p4 on vet2) ) /4,5 = 18
Replace values of reload with veterancy and we will see whole picture.
First, StuG costs 90 fuel, not 75.
Secobd (can't look it up right now): didn't the OST P4 have 180 armor? that would be 88% pen chance for the SU76 at max range, which by the way depending on what you want to compare scews the calculation since it has 10 more range than the StuG.
Third, where did you get the ROF values from? The reload alone is not enough. An these values look a bit to simple for me.
And last point: you should make it clearer what you want to compare actually. Of course the SU performs worse against a OKW P4 than against OST P4 and than the StuG vs Allied mediums. That's because it's the most expensive standard medium in the game
First, StuG costs 90 fuel, not 75.
Secobd (can't look it up right now): didn't the OST P4 have 180 armor? that would be 88% pen chance for the SU76 at max range, which by the way depending on what you want to compare scews the calculation since it has 10 more range than the StuG.
Third, where did you get the ROF values from? The reload alone is not enough. An these values look a bit to simple for me.
And last point: you should make it clearer what you want to compare actually. Of course the SU performs worse against a OKW P4 than against OST P4 and than the StuG vs Allied mediums. That's because it's the most expensive standard medium in the game
We look to situation when stug will be cost 75, but have lower penetration and time of reload will be higher.
Armor the same as OKW. Default armor of ally mediums 160 (t-3476 have 150). Default armor of p4 180 (i thought it 160 like other, my mistake). I compare effectivness against mediums (main role of su-76 and stug). If they will be cost equal that means and effectivness should bring to one level?
Armor the same as OKW. Default armor of ally mediums 160 (t-3476 have 150). Default armor of p4 180 (i thought it 160 like other, my mistake). I compare effectivness against mediums (main role of su-76 and stug). If they will be cost equal that means and effectivness should bring to one level?
Okay, I did not get the cost equivalency.
Hard to say though if those to units should have basically the same performance it they cost the same, since StuG comes out later (about 12-13 minutes) than the SU (8-9 min), which means that the StuG is no option for the LV early/mid game. For the late game, same cost should mean same performance, but we also have to take into account the potential shock value that the SU76 has as an advantage due to earlier timing.
If we say that the performance should be the same, but the StuG should come later than the SU76, then the SU76 should become a bit more expensive compared to the StuG.
Armor the same as OKW. Default armor of ally mediums 160 (t-3476 have 150). Default armor of p4 180 (i thought it 160 like other, my mistake). I compare effectivness against mediums (main role of su-76 and stug). If they will be cost equal that means and effectivness should bring to one level?
Suggesting that one Panther will come at the same time as the third Allied medium is quite far fetched.
Oh it'll come faster, but it won't be able to chase without exposing itself and 2nd one won't be out anytime soon. It'll also face 2 meds that will already have some damage done, helping take away fuel.
Okay, i ended table of battle effectivness of STUG ans SU-76
Some assumptions were made: only frontal battles, no any flanking. No any misses ( i don't know how calculate accuracy and target size). I use time of reload, damage, penetration, armor to calculate DPS. To calculate dps for different distance - divide speed of medium on distance of fire (close-mid, far-mid - for stug 2 values equals 25, for su-76 2 values on 30). I count that medium moving already with maximum speed.
I calculate STUG vs ally mediums and SU-76 vs OST P4.
Some things to remember:
Damage of all mediums 160, health of all mediums 640, range of fire of all mediums starts at 40. Stug chance to pen always 100% due it penetration. Stug health 560. SU-76 health 400.
1. The most dangerous enemy for stug is Cromwell - due high ROF and speed.
2. Ally mediums saved more health when point blank battle started due their high speed.
3. Stug always survive
4. SU-76 always die
5. vet3 t-3476 better than vet3 Sherman against vet3 Stug due higher ROF and speed - point blank battle starts sooner.
6. SU-76 deal more damage from Close-Mid battle (pen value higher).
I believe Sherman should be better in game test thank to the moving accuracy bonus, so it does not miss shoots while advancing
Btw did u count cool down and time to aim too ?
In coh2db all these stats equal for all armor (mediums and stug with su-76). But i'm pretty sure that more higher accuracy will work for sake of sherman on Far-Mid distance (it DPS will decrease not so much as for moving t-3476 or Cromwell). In fact, mediums DPS (if we include accuracy on moving) will decrease and Stug and Su-76 will have more advantage against them (because they don't move). Stug will have more "lifetime", while su-76 still dead (because DPS of P4 will decrease not so much to get for SU-76 chance to survive).
Again, it's all digits - in reality every player will kite and flank. It could only show raw performance of units. But even simple logic, without calculations says: "Stug always better as medium TD than SU-76". You could dive su-76 and have chance to survive, you could try to dive STUG with cromwell, but anytimes - against su-76 you have more chances.
If someone want to make these units closer to each other (in terms of resources and effectivness) - it will be only nerf for stug and buff for su-76 (even if you increase it cost, you will make it potent against p4).
In fact to make STUG more closer to su-76, there are simple ways:
1. Seriuosly decreased ROF + Decreased cost, increased range to 60
2. Seriously decreased Health + Decreased cost, increased range to 60
3. Seriuosly decreased Penetration + Decreased cost, increased range to 60
4. Seriuosly decreased Damage + Decreased cost, increased range to 60
I could make some digits for interest, when i will return to home, for each of these variants.
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