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Clown Cars

12 Apr 2019, 14:32 PM
#1
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

A set of changes intended to make the WC51, Universal Carrier and M3 Scout Car less game-warping 'all-or-nothing' units. Especially in the OKW-SOV matchup the game can largely come down to if you hit an early mine or not.

These simple changes are intended to make them a little more reliable but less snowbally.

Standardize Health to WC51
Currently the Universal Carrier and Soviet M3 are oneshot by mines. The WC51 is not.

Increase the health of the Universal Carrier and Soviet M3 to WC51 levels so basic mines don't oneshot them. You'll need a squad to follow up to kill a UC or Clown Car with a Sturmpio mine.

Increase Moving Accuracy Penalty for Garrisoned Squads
I'm fairly sure the moving accuracy penalty for a squad in a vehicle is tied to the vehicle. It's 0.5 by default: make it 0.2. You're not going to reliably hit infantry firing out of a moving vehicle.

That should prevent garrisonable cars from chasing down and wiping squads in the early game, particularly the notorious WC51/Cav Rifle combo.

Self-Repair
The WC51 can decrew and heal itself. The Universal Carrier has a self-repair ability, but it doesn't fully repair it. The M3 needs to be fixed by engineers.

Make the UC self-repair fully heal the vehicle, and give that ability to the M3 too. This brings the two more expensive cars up to the WC51's level in sustainability.

Give Volksgrenadiers snares immediately

The only purpose of gating Volksgrenadier Panzerfausts behind the first truck serves is to allow ultralights near total freedom against OKW in the first few minutes. If the cars can freely self-repair, this restriction isn't necessary to make the cars viable.
12 Apr 2019, 14:49 PM
#2
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2718 | Subs: 2

I am not sure exactly why the UC is considered as a "clown car" when you take into account that it's occupants cannot fire out of the vehicle.
12 Apr 2019, 14:56 PM
#3
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 546 | Subs: 1

Describing the UC as a clown car
Request for buff to OKW
Totally forget that the Ost variant exists


I smell some bias.
12 Apr 2019, 15:56 PM
#4
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

I am not sure exactly why the UC is considered as a "clown car" when you take into account that it's occupants cannot fire out of the vehicle.

The M3's nicknamed the Clown Car. The WC51 works the same way, and the Universal Carrier fills a similar early light fire support role. It was a nice alliterative name for the thread.

I can ask a moderator to change it to 'Ultralight Vehicles' if people are losing sleep over it.


I smell some bias.

Then take a shower.
12 Apr 2019, 16:26 PM
#5
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2718 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2019, 15:56 PMLago

The M3's nicknamed the Clown Car. The WC51 works the same way, and the Universal Carrier fills a similar early light fire support role. It was a nice alliterative name for the thread.

I can ask a moderator to change it to 'Ultralight Vehicles' if people are losing sleep over it.



Then take a shower.


I was around the time during the game's early release back in 2013 when the term was coined so I know exactly what it means.

And I'm not losing sleep over it, I'm pointing out a flaw in your logic of calling it a clown car since it's not, a support vehicle maybe, but not be a clown car. Unless of course you're confusing it with the Bren Carrier from the CoH Commonwealth because that was probably the only other "Clown car" besides the PE 250 Halftrack.
12 Apr 2019, 16:27 PM
#6
avatar of Flyingsmonster

Posts: 125

Mines should definitely 1 hit wipe UC / M3 / WC51, that is good design and rewards using mines, making it so that vehicles can limp away is bad design.

Self repair for all starting LV is also a terrible idea in my opinion and completely unnecessary in the case of the M3 since 99% of the time you have combat engineers riding in them.

The only reason UC has self repair as far as I'm aware is because you have to tech to get engineers that can repair your vehicles for you as UKF, so they gave it a self repair option so that it can still at least get some repairs for a munitions cost if it gets snared or heavily damaged before you get any Royal Engineers out.
12 Apr 2019, 16:46 PM
#7
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 676 | Subs: 1

Just to clean up on that Clown Car term:
Its an LV that´s armored low enough to get forced off by substantial amount of small arms fire.
So yeah, UC fits that quite well.

And by the way, I can only agree with the third point of OP- faust for volks (lock flame nade behind truck instead)

12 Apr 2019, 16:55 PM
#8
avatar of The_Usurper86

Posts: 48

"Give Volksgrenadiers snares immediately"

I lean against this whether its 1v1 or team games. If you're bringing M3, means you've gone penal. You're giving up early map control for stronger mainline. A penal, m3 build, should not so easily be negated right from the early get go. I feel its because the Volks can't immediately AT your CC allows you some time to harass and build up your force. If they do this to Volks, wouldn't one then argue Cons should get AT nade outright as well without having to tech?
12 Apr 2019, 17:06 PM
#9
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 963 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2019, 14:32 PMLago

Standardize Health to WC51
Currently the Universal Carrier and Soviet M3 are oneshot by mines. The WC51 is not.

Increase the health of the Universal Carrier and Soviet M3 to WC51 levels so basic mines don't oneshot them. You'll need a squad to follow up to kill a UC or Clown Car with a Sturmpio mine.


Eh I think the WC51 should be standardized to the UC and Scout Car to get OHKed by mines instead of the other way around.
12 Apr 2019, 17:15 PM
#10
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1983 | Subs: 3

Mines should definitely 1 hit wipe UC / M3 / WC51, that is good design and rewards using mines, making it so that vehicles can limp away is bad design.
Eh I think the WC51 should be standardized to the UC and Scout Car to get OHKed by mines instead of the other way around.


Personally I would much rather reduce the raw killing/wiping power of these super light vehicles and give them a moderate survivability buff (240HP) in return.

I'd give them more lineair combat performance instead of the current bloated/cheesy high risk high reward they have now. The early game is no place for this imo.

I think the Sd.Kfz 221/223 is a good example of a lineair performance light vehicle that scales well but isn't overly powerful early on. It will help win firefights, chase off flanking or overextending squads and it can cause some good manpower bleed when micro'd correctly, but it won't destroy or wipe squads left and right.
12 Apr 2019, 17:15 PM
#11
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1395

@ OP

I like your changes across the board with exception to 2 items:

1) I think the occupant accuracy should stay as it is because of considerable amount of investment for early game and the micro tax to chase units.

2) I don't think VGs should get snare early as "The_Usurper86" mentioned above.
12 Apr 2019, 17:29 PM
#12
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4494

I lean against this whether its 1v1 or team games. If you're bringing M3, means you've gone penal. You're giving up early map control for stronger mainline. A penal, m3 build, should not so easily be negated right from the early get go. I feel its because the Volks can't immediately AT your CC allows you some time to harass and build up your force. If they do this to Volks, wouldn't one then argue Cons should get AT nade outright as well without having to tech?


WM and OKW don't have clown cars though. WM has an unarmed Sd.Kfz. 250 that's 1CP and OKW has a Kubelwagen that cannot be garrisoned let alone shot from.
12 Apr 2019, 17:31 PM
#13
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

f they do this to Volks, wouldn't one then argue Cons should get AT nade outright as well without having to tech?


In my book? Yes. I'd unlock the molotov as well.

The current design promotes all or nothing on Conscripts.

@ OP

I like your changes across the board with exception to 2 items:

1) I think the occupant accuracy should stay as it is because of considerable amount of investment for early game and the micro tax to chase units.

2) I don't think VGs should get snare early as "The_Usurper86" mentioned above.


The problem with moving accuracy is you mess up an engagement as the opponent, your squad's probably dead. And early game wipes swing the game hard.

The WC51/Cav Rifle combo added in the last patch is a retreat-wiping machine.

Trashing the garrisoned squad's moving accuracy is the only way I can think of to break that combo without nerfing the WC51 or Cav Rifles into oblivion.
12 Apr 2019, 17:31 PM
#14
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 121

Describing the UC as a clown car
Request for buff to OKW
Totally forget that the Ost variant exists


I smell some bias.


You smell bias? Lol
12 Apr 2019, 18:09 PM
#15
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6447 | Subs: 1

Imo these light vehicles should follow the kubel changes:
Less armor for more HP
Less DPS on the move

OWK snare should be available when Truck is built not set up and RW could be become available when truck is set up.

WC51 is simply OP and should be nerfed. (lose crew and off map abilities, could get some other utility instead)
12 Apr 2019, 18:22 PM
#16
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2718 | Subs: 2

Just to clean up on that Clown Car term:
Its an LV that´s armored low enough to get forced off by substantial amount of small arms fire.
So yeah, UC fits that quite well.

And by the way, I can only agree with the third point of OP- faust for volks (lock flame nade behind truck instead)



The clown car term was coined back in 2013 specifically for the M3 Scout Car when there was a squad riding in the back.

There is no literal other reason to call a vehicle a "clown car" if it doesn't or can't hold troops that shoot out of it.

UC without upgrades is just a basic transporter, that's it.

If you don't believe me feel free to google it.
12 Apr 2019, 18:31 PM
#17
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6336 | Subs: 1

This is a clowncar.





I'm not sure if i could call the shock light early vehicles a problem or not. They are what is called "cheese" strats/units in RTS.
What you propose is to make them irrelevant in the only moment they are useful. You would need to give them Kubel levels of utility in order to make them work (and kubel doesn't work because the utility is locked down behind unattainable vet).

Changing the accuracy values wouldn't work neither, if we consider flame based clowncars.
12 Apr 2019, 18:31 PM
#18
avatar of The_Usurper86

Posts: 48



WM and OKW don't have clown cars though. WM has an unarmed Sd.Kfz. 250 that's 1CP and OKW has a Kubelwagen that cannot be garrisoned let alone shot from.


That's fair. However, Cons will need the AT nades for Luchs, Flame Halftrack and 222 when they come out. Which currently needs to be teched to get. I'm trying my darndest not to turn this point into a "Cons utility" post as there's plenty of those. But the immediate AT nade out the gate would cause too much disruption in the rest of the balance IMO. Giving Volks AT nade out the gate plus RW. Almost no reason to go clown car at all then with that much AT to stop it during the window it can be most effective.
12 Apr 2019, 21:06 PM
#19
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 676 | Subs: 1



The clown car term was coined back in 2013 specifically for the M3 Scout Car when there was a squad riding in the back.

There is no literal other reason to call a vehicle a "clown car" if it doesn't or can't hold troops that shoot out of it.

UC without upgrades is just a basic transporter, that's it.

If you don't believe me feel free to google it.

Wow
Ok, so 3+ years of my life have been a lie. Well, shit…b:oops::gimpy:

Now we gotta figure out a good term for what I wrongly mentioned as a definition of a clown car.
Any ideas? :unsure::help:

12 Apr 2019, 21:06 PM
#20
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13805 | Subs: 7


Wow
Ok, so 3+ years of my life have been a lie. Well, shit…b:oops::gimpy:

Now we gotta figure out a good term for what I wrongly mentioned as a definition of a clown car.
Any ideas? :unsure::help:


How about.... infantry transport?
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