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Why does the Firefly have to suck so much?

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7 Mar 2019, 13:55 PM
#21
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Why is the JP4 too expensive to counter medium tanks? It costs roughly the same as a Su85 and less than Jackson and Firefly. It's also next to impossible for Allied medium tanks to do much damage to it because of 230 frontal armor. Unlike allied TDs that all get penned at a high percentage by P4s


The JP4 isn't bad, it's redundant.

You want a quick counter to enemy mediums? You get the OKW P4. It'll beat them and is your best anti-infantry medium. You want a tank-killer, you almost always spend the extra 45 FU on a Panther, which has AI capability and will never become outclassed by the deployment of enemy heavies.

The JP4's only really good against enemy TD spam, because it matches range with them and cloaks.
7 Mar 2019, 13:57 PM
#22
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Why is the JP4 too expensive to counter medium tanks? It costs roughly the same as a Su85 and less than Jackson and Firefly. It's also next to impossible for Allied medium tanks to do much damage to it because of 230 frontal armor. Unlike allied TDs that all get penned at a high percentage by P4s

Because a JP costs more than allied tank. Dedicated counter are usually cheaper than the unit they counter.

Medium tank are not meant to fight a dedicated TD like the JP-4 frontally, one can simply flank a JP where they get 100% chance to penetrate.

If one is losing M-36/FF to PzIV, one is probably doing something wrong.
7 Mar 2019, 14:08 PM
#23
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


I'll remind you about this every single time you'll complain about Panther vs TDs again the future.


Its price is very in line with TDs of this tier. It also has amazing vet that makes it most survivable 60 range TD. Its perfectly fine counter to mediums and as long as OKW has panther, no, its penetration is not too low vs heavies, because its not meant to engage them, you have specialist vehicle for that in the same tier.


Its a top tier TD which is supposed to be hardcounter WITHOUT being spammed for up to 375 STOCK armor.
Its pen being too good is your personal opinion, not balance fact.

And your opinion on vet is plain wrong, taking away RoF vet, making it machinegun TD obliterating both heavies and mediums alike with equal ease and replacing it with pen that makes a difference exclusively vs heavies while doing absolutely nadda against meds and increasing reload time only makes it better vs heavies, the exact units it was supposed to be better against.

I see you little campaign of proving Vipper wrong still goes on with the usual poor result.

The penetration is high this is a fact not a personal opinion supported by stats:
Vetted SU-85 Penetration 312/299/286
Veted FF Penetration 260/240/210
Vetted Panther Penetration 260/240/220

Chance to penetrate at max range:
Vetted Panther 100%
Vetted Tiger 95.3%
Vetted KT 76.3%


7 Mar 2019, 14:26 PM
#24
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 14:08 PMVipper

I see you little campaign of proving Vipper wrong still goes on with the usual poor result.

The penetration is high this is a fact not a personal opinion supported by stats:
Vetted SU-85 Penetration 312/299/286

Vetted Panther Penetration 260/240/220

Chance to penetrate at max range:
Vetted Panther 100%
Vetted Tiger 95.3%
Vetted KT 76.3%

Vetted top tier Tank Destroyer has high chance to penetrate armor of late game tanks.
7 Mar 2019, 14:35 PM
#25
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 14:08 PMVipper

I see you little campaign of proving Vipper wrong still goes on with the usual poor result.

The penetration is high this is a fact not a personal opinion supported by stats:
Vetted SU-85 Penetration 312/299/286
Veted FF Penetration 260/240/210
Vetted Panther Penetration 260/240/220

Chance to penetrate at max range:
Vetted Panther 100%
Vetted Tiger 95.3%
Vetted KT 76.3%



In other words:

Its reliably doing its one fucking job.

Why you never argue for Panther having too much penetration right out of the gate, when allies armor value overall is much lower then axis?

Penetration being high is a fact.
Penetration being too high is your personal opinion.

Learn the difference, these two are not the same and you've erased yourself the line between facts and your own opinion.
7 Mar 2019, 14:53 PM
#26
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

I think firefly is fine for its price and stats. The issue with tank is that it relies too much on maps. Firefly does phenomenally well on open maps but small closed maps it loses all its advantages. With SU-85 you have a decent fire rate and rotation to work with.
7 Mar 2019, 15:06 PM
#27
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


Vetted top tier Tank Destroyer has high chance to penetrate armor of late game tanks.

It has been argued by the usual suspect that the high penetration of the SU-85 is my opinion and not a fact. I simply provided the number that prove it is a fact and not an opinion.
7 Mar 2019, 15:09 PM
#28
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


In other words:

Its reliably doing its one fucking job.

No that is only your opinion, mine is that it is OP.



Why you never argue for Panther having too much penetration right out of the gate, when allies armor value overall is much lower then axis?

Penetration being high is a fact.
Penetration being too high is your personal opinion.

Learn the difference, these two are not the same and you've erased yourself the line between facts and your own opinion.

PLS provide the allied unit you are referring to because there is large number of allied vehicles that have high armor values.

Finally, I have no intention of playing word games with you and help you derail yet another thread.
7 Mar 2019, 15:36 PM
#29
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

Without getting too deep in the weeds I think the reason Firefly can feel meh is that it mostly relied on scaling and support of other units to truly shine due to it's ROF and what not. A properly shielded and Vetted Firefly is a beast (good luck killing it with a Churchill soaking up damage in front of it). Also +1 to FF + Command Aura - it's VERY good.
On the other hand if you're on the backfoot and getting a Firefly as your first vehicle to counter PZ4s already on the field then it's pretty easy for the Firefly to struggle and you have to really focus on outplaying your opponent. It's not bad per-se, it's just very different from other TDs which is kind of nice seeing how the armies have been getting increasingly homogenized. It might be nice to reduce it by like 5 fuel though as it's price does feel restrictive sometimes if you desperately need a TD and have poor map control.
7 Mar 2019, 15:40 PM
#30
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779

Another stupid DPS argument.
Don't you know something like Alpha damage?

By DPS, Elephant and JT must be a total piece of shit.
7 Mar 2019, 15:43 PM
#31
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 710 | Subs: 2

Buff its speed. Isn't it a sherman? They were relatively fast right?
7 Mar 2019, 16:26 PM
#32
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 15:43 PMGiaA
Buff its speed. Isn't it a sherman? They were relatively fast right?

FF was slower than PzIV in real life if this has any relevance.

In game FF get 15% speed at vet 1 and can has access to "war speed".

As long as FF gets Tulips it's performance will be inconstant since it will be able to wipe out a medium tank with one reload.

One will probably have to redesign Tulips to to make the performance of the unit more consistent.
7 Mar 2019, 16:40 PM
#33
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 16:26 PMVipper
One will probably have to redesign Tulips to to make the performance of the unit more consistent.


That's a good idea. The Firefly's currently awful value without them and a lethal wrecking ball if you feed it hundreds of munitions.
7 Mar 2019, 16:51 PM
#34
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

Another stupid DPS argument.
Don't you know something like Alpha damage?

By DPS, Elephant and JT must be a total piece of shit.


Elefant does 37.5 at Vet 0 and 66.9 at Vet 3.

JT does 35 at vet 0 and 111.9 at Vet 5.

So yeah they dont have bad DPS.

I think the Firefly just deserves a cost reduction to around 360/140. Then it can stay the "unique" TD it is now but not cost so much more without actually being better as comparable Allied TDs (Jackson and SU85). Considering the amount of munitions you need on top of the highest stock price makes you think you get a really really good TD that outclasses comparable vehicles but that´s just not the case at the moment.


7 Mar 2019, 17:12 PM
#35
avatar of Fantomasas

Posts: 122

Tip: don't use Tulips for the extra damage. Tulips are only good as a stun or a last-ditch finisher.

If you miss one rocket, you are not doing any extra damage because of the extra reload time. If you miss both rockets - you have just lost munitions and added 5 seconds to the reload timer. If you just spam rockets, you will lose the opportunity to stun or finish the enemy tank which is waaaaaaaaaaay more valuable than extra 40 damage.
7 Mar 2019, 17:37 PM
#36
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Elefant does 37.5 at Vet 0 and 66.9 at Vet 3.

JT does 35 at vet 0 and 111.9 at Vet 5.

So yeah they dont have bad DPS.

I think the Firefly just deserves a cost reduction to around 360/140. Then it can stay the "unique" TD it is now but not cost so much more without actually being better as comparable Allied TDs (Jackson and SU85). Considering the amount of munitions you need on top of the highest stock price makes you think you get a really really good TD that outclasses comparable vehicles but that´s just not the case at the moment.



DPS without Armor and target size values does not mean much.

In addition its actually time to kill that matter because JT and Elephant usually overkill. If you want to use DPS you have to lower the damage according to the number of shots.

For instance a Elephant vs medium does 900 damage to kill a medium so its damage medium so be considered 214 if you are using DPS calculations.

So actually the DPS of vetted Elephant vs a medium is about equal to that of vetted FF without the tulips although it need allot more XP to get to vet 3.
7 Mar 2019, 18:23 PM
#37
avatar of Mongal

Posts: 102

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 17:37 PMVipper

DPS without Armor and target size values does not mean much.

In addition its actually time to kill that matter because JT and Elephant usually overkill. If you want to use DPS you have to lower the damage according to the number of shots.

For instance a Elephant vs medium does 900 damage to kill a medium so its damage medium so be considered 214 if you are using DPS calculations.

So actually the DPS of vetted Elephant vs a medium is about equal to that of vetted FF without the tulips although it need allot more XP to get to vet 3.


Yeah but the Ele/JT can shoot your medium from the other side of the map. Not surprising you do not include the strongest point of these 2 units.

Back on topic. I would like to see some sort of small acceleration/speed buff for the FF. Its a sitting duck against any diving axis tanks/TDs.
7 Mar 2019, 18:28 PM
#38
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 12:45 PMVipper

You have to factor in tulips DPS also...
You have to factor in the bonus from commander
You have to factor in that FF has the long mid range than most (if not all) TDs.
You have to factor in the possibility war speed/Hammer trucking (or fast repair)


And yet you ignore OKW super fast repairs stock, lower pop cap for jagdpanzer and USF vehicle crews, you would be a great poster vipper if you looked at both sides of balance.

On topic I think the FF needs like 10 less fuel and 40mp less MP shaved off, after snares it can actually somewhat work now. Prepatch it was getting lulz stomped even by pumas

Also tulips shouldn't be so goofy to use, let us fire them on the move like any other ability, the balance team have been pretty good with these adjustments rather than the relic sledgehammer approach of buff or nerf (ok Jaeger were a one off)
7 Mar 2019, 18:34 PM
#39
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 18:23 PMMongal


Yeah but the Ele/JT can shoot your medium from the other side of the map. Not surprising you do not include the strongest point of these 2 units.

Back on topic. I would like to see some sort of small acceleration/speed buff for the FF. Its a sitting duck against any diving axis tanks/TDs.

Not really, Elephant has a range of 70 and FF of 60.
(Unless in you opinion the FF can shoot enemy medium on the other side of map and stug can not.)

Actually I have little intention of comparing the 2 units I am simply pointing out that the "DPS" calculation provided are flawed and are misleading.
7 Mar 2019, 18:36 PM
#40
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



And yet you ignore OKW super fast repairs stock, lower pop cap for jagdpanzer and USF vehicle crews, you would be a great poster vipper if you looked at both sides of balance.

On topic I think the FF needs like 10 less fuel and 40mp less MP shaved off, after snares it can actually somewhat work now. Prepatch it was getting lulz stomped even by pumas

Also tulips shouldn't be so goofy to use, let us fire them on the move like any other ability

Pop of JP is 15 and of the FF is 16, so I am not sure what your point it (unless you want to argue that a pop 1 is a big difference).
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