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[TEST] Best Long Range Anti Infantry Unit

6 Mar 2019, 13:39 PM
#21
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3596 | Subs: 1

Never have a problem vettig up JLI myself.

Its a small and incomprehensive test, but the results should surprise nobody, and JLI remain broken. Would be good to have a sample size of a hundred each. Got a few days to spare..?


Yeah but you know Balance team is closely monitoring them so that's ok :thumb:

From USF experience JLI can only be effectively countered by LVs, a bit like the Ostheer sniper but worst. Team weapon and regular infantry (and special infantry as well) are just meat to vet them.

This is just fabulous because the balance team did everything to remove (on purpose) any crutch LVs could have on the early game and then made Allied faction forced to rely on them to deal with the JLI aberration.
But they are closely monitoring them, they already made everything possible to not change their stats, to make sure that they continue to be OP at all cost. I mean it is not like we all know that whatever price an OP unit has, it remains OP.

6 Mar 2019, 13:48 PM
#22
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Mar 2019, 13:39 PMEsxile

...
But they are closely monitoring them, they already made everything possible to not change their stats, to make sure that they continue to be OP at all cost. I mean it is not like we all know that whatever price an OP unit has, it remains OP.


In the majority of times when a unit is characterized Over Performing it is meant OP for cost.

I JLI had a price of 500 manpower they would UP for cost.
6 Mar 2019, 14:07 PM
#23
avatar of Musti

Posts: 203

4 of those squads aren't even proper long range specialists
Commandos and Paras still have plenty of close range firepower (and on the move) Panzerfusiliers G43 have SMG-like close range DPS aswell (but with no penalty to long range) and Fallshirmjagers are all range too.
They stack up quite well when compared to say Guards (as immobile as it gets)
JLI have way to strong of a vet (esp. RA), that's all.
6 Mar 2019, 14:31 PM
#24
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3596 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Mar 2019, 13:48 PMVipper

In the majority of times when a unit is characterized Over Performing it is meant OP for cost.

I JLI had a price of 500 manpower they would UP for cost.


That's two different things. JLI are OP by stat and OP for their cost together. Exemple: King Tiger and T-A were during a long time OP even if super costly because the moment you get them your opponent couldn't do shit vs them or invest even more resources to get something that could counter them.

JLI priced at 500 manpower would simply be overpriced OP units so nobody can afford to buy them but if you could we would be back to the exact same situation.

6 Mar 2019, 14:32 PM
#25
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 206





Even more so the fact that the way these tests were set up (a tested squad facing the previous tested squad) does not produce conclusive results. Or the fact that the incredibly small sample size can potentially favor units that rely more on RNG than others (JLI sniper over Obers LMG for example), or disfavor them. Or the fact that the conclusions drawn do not consider unit cost, timing, role or context. For example Guards do less AI damage for sure, but they have a huge advantage in bringing some light AT as well.

It also seems to use units that are not even remotely comparable (LMG Grens, Jaeger Command Squad, Guards, Panzerfusiliers, etc. all have completely different roles and strengths) to make the top squad(s) seem even better than they really are, although I'm not sure if this was done on purpose.



If one wants to make a truly competetive list, the tests need to be run in a considerable sample size (for the sake of reasonability I'd say 5-10 runs per squad at least, though of course preferably something closer to 100), done in a completely similar testing environment (all tested squads facing the same squad), at different vet levels and in different situations (no/yellow/green cover), comparing only squads that have a very similar role (JLI/Obers/Paras for example) and using something like Time To Kill as a neutral measurement. Then this Time To Kill would have to be brought into perspective by bringing in things like unit cost into comparison.




Sorry to disappoint you, the objective of this test was to have a tier list of the best LONG RANGE anti-infantry unit, I did use the green cover to have betters consistent samples since no cover relies more on RNG. I can do some yellow cover tests, but I can almost guarantee that will be very close to the green cover tests.
I did mention that the low tier I didn't care much, but the high tier like guards/Obers/JLIs I did test it more than 5 times. But the JLIs vs Obers wasn't even a close call.
And BTW I don't care about the role of the unit, if a ranger is doing a good long damage DPS, I am testing it. They were all Squad to Squad combat, I am not considering the costs, just because I don't want to it. You can come with your own conclusions about this.
Thanks bro.
6 Mar 2019, 14:35 PM
#26
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

how the fuck did barfinder lose to panzerfusilier the scoped rifle alone deal double the dps of 1 kar 98 so 4 panzer fusiler = 2 path finder mans
if u had BARs and the 40% crit it's like 20% chance to win ?

try again
6 Mar 2019, 14:37 PM
#27
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



realistically, squads will be fighting in cover and without and at all ranges, just because cover is a core component doesn't mean it will be used at all times,a vet 5 JLI in green cover long range, is the most optimal area for them ofc they will excel in it. But JLI should be 300mp at least
even at 300 mp they would still be too good, the 75% crits need to be lowerd to 50% and another scoped rifle needs to be added so they can mirror path finders
6 Mar 2019, 14:57 PM
#28
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

You can come with your own conclusions about this.
Thanks bro.


Oh but I have.

I have done a more proper test once, even though it was one for leisure and the sample size isn't more than what I could fit on a single map. By no means would this small test be definitive, but it produced different results than those you claimed.

In proper test environments, Obersoldaten in both yellow and green cover situations came out on top of JLI with ease at all veterancy levels except vet 5. At that point JLI were about equal, but still slightly worse.




6 Mar 2019, 15:05 PM
#29
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


.
And BTW I don't care about the role of the unit, if a ranger is doing a good long damage DPS, I am testing it. ..

Then you should test ranger 3 BARs...

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Mar 2019, 14:31 PMEsxile


That's two different things. JLI are OP by stat and OP for their cost together. Exemple: King Tiger and T-A were during a long time OP even if super costly because the moment you get them your opponent couldn't do shit vs them or invest even more resources to get something that could counter them.

JLI priced at 500 manpower would simply be overpriced OP units so nobody can afford to buy them but if you could we would be back to the exact same situation.


That makes no sense at all.

Over performing is a unit that performs better than it should, according to you KT over perform because its base stats are OP...

In order for a unit to over perform it has to compared to something and one has to take into all all factor including price...

In addition the "base stat" are not that good to begin with, when built they have the same weapon as grenadiers with 0.8 target size.
6 Mar 2019, 15:21 PM
#30
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

how the fuck did barfinder lose to panzerfusilier the scoped rifle alone deal double the dps of 1 kar 98 so 4 panzer fusiler = 2 path finder mans
if u had BARs and the 40% crit it's like 20% chance to win ?

try again


JLI are almost twice as hard to hit
JLI basically ignore cover
JLI snipe threshold is over twice as high
JLI get an out of cover bonus

Bias less

Ignore me that was pointed at Fusis.

A more interesting question. The BARs are higher priority than the Scoped rifles AFAIK, so they lose the snipe rifles before they lose their BAR. At four versus six models pathfinders drop DPS faster and can no longer snipe at half models, while the G43s retain their full damage output as the KARs drop and only the weapon upgrade remains.
6 Mar 2019, 15:22 PM
#31
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 206

The request tests were done.

Fusiliers vs Pathfinders (2 Bars) (Thanks to Stug life)
Pathfinders lost 3 times in a row.

Yellow Cover tests (Thanks to Sander93)
JLIs did a 7-3 score against Obers. A lot of them was a close call. In yellow cover I can say that Obers and JLIs are very close in yellow, but in green cover Obers doesn't have a chance.
The rest of the matchups were pretty much the same.
THe rest was pretty much the same.

Rangers (3 BARS) (Thanks to Vipper)
Very impressive actually, It win everything up to Guards. They did reach rank 4 on the list. A lot of weapon drops tho
6 Mar 2019, 15:28 PM
#32
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3596 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Mar 2019, 15:05 PMVipper

Then you should test ranger 3 BARs...


That makes no sense at all.

Over performing is a unit that performs better than it should, according to you KT over perform because its base stats are OP...

In order for a unit to over perform it has to compared to something and one has to take into all all factor including price...

In addition the "base stat" are not that good to begin with, when built they have the same weapon as grenadiers with 0.8 target size.


How do you compare T-A stat with another unit since it has a unique profile? KT is in the same situation, no other faction has a such a similar unit. Brumbar also has a unique profile etc...

KT was OP because of its stats, T-A was OP at release because of its stat. And yet they also had incredible cost also at that time.

What about UKF airbombing (can't remember the name) that was wipping half of the map for an incredible cost at UKF release.

All of those units and abilities have seen their stats modified, not their price increased.
6 Mar 2019, 15:44 PM
#33
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

How exactly are 1919 paras losing to thompson rangers at max range?
6 Mar 2019, 15:48 PM
#34
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 206

How exactly are 1919 paras losing to thompson rangers at max range?
It isn't the thompsons, but 3 BARS with the Rangers Stats. I can do a video for you if you want. Or you can test yourself.
ddd
6 Mar 2019, 15:48 PM
#35
avatar of ddd

Posts: 528 | Subs: 1

Nice test, to nobodys surprise okw infantry seems to be absolutly broken and incredibly cost efficient. I wonder what happened to usf "trademark" of faction built around riflemen. Seems like every okw squad, starting from engineers to 250mp mainline to 250mp callins (took months to increase price to 280mp, thanks balance team) to non doc elites shits all over rifles without breaking a sweat. Are ass engies and cav rifles the only "fix" usf got to compete with okw infantry spam? Or can we hope to finally get proper cost adjustment on riflemen squad?
6 Mar 2019, 15:49 PM
#36
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

It isn't the thompsons, but 3 BARS with the Rangers Stats. I can do a video for you if you want. Or you can test yourself.


BAR OP
6 Mar 2019, 15:58 PM
#37
avatar of mons7erz

Posts: 90

How exactly are 1919 paras losing to thompson rangers at max range?

They heard the sound of the Thompson's and said "oh garden!" And retreated
6 Mar 2019, 16:02 PM
#38
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



Ignore me that was pointed at Fusis.

A more interesting question. The BARs are higher priority than the Scoped rifles AFAIK, so they lose the snipe rifles before they lose their BAR. At four versus six models pathfinders drop DPS faster and can no longer snipe at half models, while the G43s retain their full damage output as the KARs drop and only the weapon upgrade remains.
yes but still pathfinder deal x8 fusilier unit damage, u gota be very unlucky to lose it as they have better vet, hell 1 bar might just do a better job too

stats don't lie unless there is some hidden modifier i don't know

the fight should go the same as base gren vs cons at max range green cover as difference between dps and durability is the same
6 Mar 2019, 16:07 PM
#39
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

btw u forgot that pathfinder and JLI get more range at vet 3/5 so they should be even higher
6 Mar 2019, 16:35 PM
#40
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

just redid the test of the path finder 2bar vs fusilier g43 and they won at vet 3 vs vet 5 long range and green cover

can u post the video of ur test please

here some screen shoots of mine https://imgur.com/a/d2NQwCn
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