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Balance still not fun at all in team (3vs3+) Open source ?

4 Jan 2019, 23:49 PM
#21
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919


Looks like you a not top tier player, mate. No offence here. But the main problem with beating german is sum of good HMG42 - volks build into fast Shtuka - PzWerfers.


I do think both of you are right.

In the very early game the strong OKW start with Spios into Volksgrens without having to build or tech for anything is very good for taking the strategical positions like fuel on the middle line of the map first. HMG42 and Bunkers in some decent positions can secure and lock it down afterwards. Most of this 3vs3 and 4vs4 maps are too narrow so there is no room to flank (-> map problem). When you go for allied mortars and the like to counter it the first stukka comes incredibly fast because of resource inflation in the bigger game modes (-> resource inflation problem). And there you have a problem in the big game modes because any real allied counter versus axis faction digging in is CP locked in a commander while ressources float so high that you reach T4 long before you get Valentine/Priest/Land matress and so on (-> CPs not inflated). The only exception to this is the Katyusha so we never play that arranged team 4vs4 without at least one Soviet.

When the game goes to longterm voltadark is right. Because many allied units are bound to commanders, they are more limited in unit diversity. For example USF can only have heavy tank or rocket artillery or long range artillery piece or specialised AI-Tank (Bulldozer). At the same time you need recon planes, elite infantry and offmap which you only get partly with that four choices. Because of this you have communicate with your mates and thats a lot easier in voice chat of an arranged team like voltadark stated.

Axis factions have less blind spots in their unit roster and its easier to cover them with one or two of the more diverse commanders.

Two things that are absolute bs vor 3vs3 and 4vs4 (in addition to ressource inflation and map layout):
1. Infrared HT -> You changed the Valentine and thats fine but this no-brainer has to be changed too, make it a timed munition depend ability at least -> UK Boyz AT recon ability and command vehicle recon was changed too in a similar way and Boyz AT were way less of a problem
2. Ressource abilities -> Ressource drops (Ostheer+Soviet) and Ressource trucks (only axis). I always wondered why axis has more of it and USF has none at all, but although beeing historical ironic thats not the point. It just adds to the already existing ressource inflation problem and shouldn't have a place in the bigger game modes.
5 Jan 2019, 06:56 AM
#22
avatar of blancat

Posts: 810

All usf in team game almost use infantry company
Because that is only one answer
Without inf company, usf cant anything in team game

Arty spam is problem to allies and axis both
spam mg42,vickers or maxim -> waiting for stuka or katsusha...priest, 105mm...

3v3, 4v4 team game is just "who did best playing arty"

Play 1vs1 or 2vs2

It will be bettter

5 Jan 2019, 14:52 PM
#23
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 971

Just finished a 2vs2 (Bov+Brit vs Wer+Okw) with a teammate on Road to kharkov :

We were crushing them when all of the sudden all the map expload in an non stop arty strike that kill all our units moving hiding or not.

What is it ? how to counter that holding 75% not good enough.

That is rather fun breaking and rather game breaking.

This must go away or the game is cooked ? so sad to see a good game being thrashed like that.

Relic, Wake up! you LOSE money !!!!
5 Jan 2019, 15:11 PM
#24
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 971


Looks like you a not top tier player, mate. No offence here. But the main problem with beating german is sum of good HMG42 - volks build into fast Shtuka - PzWerfers.



When i was 19 to 27 i always thought that if your not a top tier your nothing, so i aimed for it and easily achieved it. At 52 years old, i know what i'm capable of, i just want to play a good game for fun with my friends.

CoH 3 will be a lot more like COH online, the best in the serie by far.
5 Jan 2019, 15:42 PM
#25
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1094

As someone mentioned earlier I think maps are one of the key points in large team games.

Red Ball express for example is just awful as allies against MG42 with decent support (although reduced grenade tech cost has helped immensely for USF).

Steppes is a good team game map as it allows the weaker allied armour to flank as it is intended rather than plough head first into the enemy which is easier for axis units to an extent.

I would definitely like to see some more LARGE maps added to the pool but the base armies would need to have FRP's added to stand a chance vs the newer armies. Or remove all FRPs, I'm just as down for that.
5 Jan 2019, 16:36 PM
#26
avatar of d0ggY
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 823 | Subs: 3

Just finished a 2vs2 (Bov+Brit vs Wer+Okw) with a teammate on Road to kharkov :

We were crushing them when all of the sudden all the map expload in an non stop arty strike that kill all our units moving hiding or not.

What is it ? how to counter that holding 75% not good enough.

That is rather fun breaking and rather game breaking.

This must go away or the game is cooked ? so sad to see a good game being thrashed like that.

Relic, Wake up! you LOSE money !!!!


get anti air.
5 Jan 2019, 16:50 PM
#27
avatar of carloff

Posts: 301

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2019, 16:36 PMd0ggY


get anti air.

This won't help against

5 Jan 2019, 18:33 PM
#28
avatar of d0ggY
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 823 | Subs: 3


This won't help against



Close the pocket is a very mean thing, but you can literally HEAR and see it's going to be pulled off. So what to do? Regain control over the decapped point. It's doable, without losing all your units, just gotta be prepared. A game begins in the loading screen, w here you see the possible commanders of your enemy.
5 Jan 2019, 20:16 PM
#29
avatar of carloff

Posts: 301

Nice statement. But in the game, you just don't have tools to deal with it. Shtuka strikes and cutoff your sectors, and the all the fun with artillery begin.

Btw, no one cares about this. Same as for 10 ammo assault grenade pack or free faust-rifle nades and volks flame nades upgrades.
5 Jan 2019, 20:25 PM
#30
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

Nice statement. But in the game, you just don't have tools to deal with it. Shtuka strikes and cutoff your sectors, and the all the fun with artillery begin.


You do have the tools, as you can put caches on your cutoffs to prevent easy neutralizations and if vehicles try to destroy the caches to cap you'll have ample warning.
5 Jan 2019, 20:29 PM
#31
avatar of Baba

Posts: 600

well i guess there has to go something majorly wrong for the meme commander to work.
i tried it quiet a few times but in 2v2s he just doesnt pay off. and even if your opponent manages to cut you off, you can still mass retreat everything since you see the barrage coming. better lose your ground for once than losing all your units
5 Jan 2019, 20:38 PM
#32
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2019, 01:42 AMnigo
Only "maps" can balance the 3v3/4v4.

IMHO only giant maps worked well for this game modes.


and resource changes that only affects 3v3+.

The biggest problem I have seen apart from maps is just huge snowballing effect. That aspect alone makes 3v3+ actually harder for me than 2v2 recently. I have come back from plenty of bad early game in 2v2s but almost never in 3v3s. it is one thing to counter 2 opponents who are ahead of you, it is exponentially harder when you get 2 more teammates who are also lagging behind and 2 more enemies who are also ahead.

I have been following the recent 2v2 tourney mostly via tightrope's cast and it is astonishing how many come backs there are from early game stumbles. I find those come backs much harder by design in 3v3+ due to smaller maps and generally more resources,,, but also just the fact that tech pace in 3v3+ are much quicker.
5 Jan 2019, 21:35 PM
#33
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Nice statement. But in the game, you just don't have tools to deal with it. Shtuka strikes and cutoff your sectors, and the all the fun with artillery begin.

Btw, no one cares about this. Same as for 10 ammo assault grenade pack or free faust-rifle nades and volks flame nades upgrades.


Close the pocket is one of the hardest things to pull off in the game hands down.
It's equally punishing OF allowed to remain active but all you need to do is reconnect the cut off territory. If you held 75% of the map I hardly thing it would be so hard to push back slightly and recap a single point...
5 Jan 2019, 22:46 PM
#34
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1954



Close the pocket is one of the hardest things to pull off in the game hands down.
It's equally punishing OF allowed to remain active but all you need to do is reconnect the cut off territory. If you held 75% of the map I hardly thing it would be so hard to push back slightly and recap a single point...


There's only a couple of maps like Trois Pons which have territories arranged so that Close the Pocket is somewhat do-able. On most maps it is really difficult to pull off. Even on Trois Pons, you can make it much more difficult for them to pull off by covering one point with a fighting pit (as USF). Other than that ability, that commander is really mediocre.

Balance on 3v3+ doesn't seem that bad right now. It's usually "worse" when you see USF players with the Calliope commander in their loadout.
5 Jan 2019, 23:09 PM
#35
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4



You do have the tools, as you can put caches on your cutoffs to prevent easy neutralizations and if vehicles try to destroy the caches to cap you'll have ample warning.


Except OKW :romeoHype:
5 Jan 2019, 23:11 PM
#36
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17896 | Subs: 8



Except OKW :romeoHype:

But OKW now has a cache that shoots back :romeoHairDay:
5 Jan 2019, 23:42 PM
#37
avatar of carloff

Posts: 301



You do have the tools, as you can put caches on your cutoffs to prevent easy neutralizations and if vehicles try to destroy the caches to cap you'll have ample warning.

A cache won't help.

5 Jan 2019, 23:50 PM
#38
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17896 | Subs: 8


A cache won't help.


How about full health cache next time?
6 Jan 2019, 03:46 AM
#39
avatar of MakiesKurisu

Posts: 130

I think u guys actually mean 3v3+ need a wider map, so it could functions some what like 1v1 and 2v2, without giving FHQ too much superiority.
6 Jan 2019, 09:49 AM
#40
avatar of carloff

Posts: 301


How about full health cache next time?

Does it have 1000 damage like Stuka Dive Bomb, no?
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