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OKW overhaul discussion

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17 Jan 2019, 11:30 AM
#121
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6401 | Subs: 1


It's just how the game is and how it's always been. Similar or the same weapon systems act differently in different roles for the sake of variety, balance and gameplay.

As another example, there are at least 8 different versions of the MG 42 with a wide variety of stats and effects.

There is difference in the same weapon having different DPS in the different units and similar weapons one using accuracy and using the point blank mechanism while the other AOE.
That is all difference that confuses the user, who needs to read the patch notes to be aware since this info is not actually available. All this happens for no good reason without adding anything to performance of the unit.


You want to change the way the tank's offensive armament works completely, I'd call that a pretty big overhaul. No one is going to know how such changes will make it perform and balancing that will take a long time. It would be so much easier to just work with what we got right now and slightly nudge it into the right direction so it goes from underwelming to decent/good.

It actually a pretty simple change since there units that it can be modeled around (Luch/Centaur) so you already have something to work with and simply adjusted for price.
28 Jan 2019, 23:31 PM
#122
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1962 | Subs: 3

Another short suggestion: overhauling the Infrared Halftrack.

Assuming: it's here, it's not going away. A complete overhaul (like moving it to Spec Ops or w/e) is out of the question at this stage of the game's life cycle. We'll have to work with what we got to "fix" this unit as best as we can.


11. SdKfz 251/20 Infrared Halftrack
This unit's ability to 3D spot enemies in the FOW is quite cheesy and even worse, it creates the bug where it will make some enemy units permanently visible on the minimap and strategic map.
  • Removed the unit's scanning mechanic. The rotating infrared searchlight now only serves as a visual clue of the unit role and its identification.
  • Replace the scanning mechanic by a passive ability to detect all enemy units on the tactical map and the minimap. This works identical to the 223's vehicle detection, but for all units.
  • Passive Unit Detection has ~100 range.



Perhaps a munitions based ability could be added that provides +50% (or whatever number) sight range to friendly units in its vicinity when activated for certain amount of time, to give the unit a bit more micro / utility. On top of the passive detection.
29 Jan 2019, 07:02 AM
#123
avatar of Stark

Posts: 562 | Subs: 1

I don't agree with flare changes thb. It's true that people complain that ability is highly invisible, can be used anywhere in the map and can't be counter (all recon planes can be shot down). But remember that It's only dangerous in teamgames becouse it can be stock with abilities like stuka dive bomb, stuka loiters, off map artillery abilities. It's also worth pointing out that it needs a good synergy with your teammate to do so.

Another thing is that Flare ability compare to the recon planes it reveals only 1 area across the map. That mechanic already exists in game and it used by panzerfuzz, soviet sniper and mortar team (only range of the ability is smaller). Also with stuka reconnaissance passage it's the only form of detection so changing it too radical (or removing) will have negative inpact in OKW recon system and ability to fight artillery positions like ml20 in teamgames.

To not go too radical with changes i would suggest to start with simple noice signal. It's artillery flare so it should be a sound of artillery fire 3 sec becouse ability is being used. It will allow players to react on time and it will promote players who not only base on tactical map and visual aspects. Plus it shouldn't be so hard to implement.
30 Jan 2019, 12:29 PM
#124
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1962 | Subs: 3

Well team games are where the absolute majority of the playerbase is, so flares are affecting a lot of people. It's pretty easy to pull off even with randoms as long as there is someone with offmaps in their commander. The sight radius of flares isn't really that much smaller than recon planes, because recon planes (the loiters) only provide sight inwards and not in all directions. Plus the flares manually fired by units have the added micro/risk tax that these units have to be close in order to put them up.

The sight the artillery flares provide are not the problem as it essentially does the same that other recon loiters do. Even the fact that it's hard to spot the flares isn't a major problem. The real problem imo is that 1) it can be thrown anywhere on the map and 2) it's uncounterable.
30 Jan 2019, 12:57 PM
#125
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2720

Another short suggestion: overhauling the Infrared Halftrack.

Assuming: it's here, it's not going away. A complete overhaul (like moving it to Spec Ops or w/e) is out of the question at this stage of the game's life cycle. We'll have to work with what we got to "fix" this unit as best as we can.

Perhaps a munitions based ability could be added that provides +50% (or whatever number) sight range to friendly units in its vicinity when activated for certain amount of time, to give the unit a bit more micro / utility. On top of the passive detection.


Why not turn it into an actual spotter?

  • When the IR HT is stationary, it can see up to 90 range in a cone in front of it. Think of it like a cross between Spotting Scopes and Focused Sight.
  • When using the Searchlight, it also becomes visible to the enemy through the Fog of War (like in the campaign). It's a massive searchlight: it can't exactly hide.
  • Has a toggle to disable the Searchlight: disabled by default.

30 Jan 2019, 15:24 PM
#126
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1962 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 12:57 PMLago


Why not turn it into an actual spotter?

  • When the IR HT is stationary, it can see up to 90 range in a cone in front of it. Think of it like a cross between Spotting Scopes and Focused Sight.
  • When using the Searchlight, it also becomes visible to the enemy through the Fog of War (like in the campaign). It's a massive searchlight: it can't exactly hide.
  • Has a toggle to disable the Searchlight: disabled by default.



Honestly I don't like the idea that it can/could directly spot unit formations because this synergizes too well with the Stuka and/or other artillery. I think that a good balancing factor for this kind of permanent intelligence would be that it only displays unit icons on the minimap and strategic map so you'd roughly know where enemy units are but you can't see their exact position.
30 Jan 2019, 15:42 PM
#127
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2720

You can spot for onmap artillery with the current IR Halftrack.

An actual sight one would allow you to target LoS offmaps with it, but it'd also be subject to sight blockers. In many ways, it'd be weaker than the IR HT is now in an intel role.
30 Jan 2019, 16:01 PM
#128
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1962 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 15:42 PMLago
You can spot for onmap artillery with the current IR Halftrack.


That's exactly one of the reasons I'd like to see it changed.
30 Jan 2019, 17:21 PM
#129
avatar of addvaluejack

Posts: 236

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 12:57 PMLago


Why not turn it into an actual spotter?

  • When the IR HT is stationary, it can see up to 90 range in a cone in front of it. Think of it like a cross between Spotting Scopes and Focused Sight.
  • When using the Searchlight, it also becomes visible to the enemy through the Fog of War (like in the campaign). It's a massive searchlight: it can't exactly hide.
  • Has a toggle to disable the Searchlight: disabled by default.



Turn it into a real spotter will make Jagdtiger OP as hell...
30 Jan 2019, 18:38 PM
#130
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3235 | Subs: 1

Swap it with special operations flares and slam a tank hunter squad in its place. Maybe give it an aura that buffs STG Obers and the command panther slightly or a debuff to units in its cone that can only be capitalized on by the IR stgs/ Cpanther. Or abilities like mark target that increases target size and reveals the unit sort of deal.
30 Jan 2019, 20:02 PM
#131
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1962 | Subs: 3

Swap it with special operations flares and slam a tank hunter squad in its place. Maybe give it an aura that buffs STG Obers and the command panther slightly or a debuff to units in its cone that can only be capitalized on by the IR stgs/ Cpanther. Or abilities like mark target that increases target size and reveals the unit sort of deal.


A complete redesign like this would ultimately be better, and what you propose is pretty much what I'd have in mind as well, but I don't think that's ever going to happen. That's why I suggested a rather mild change that keeps the essence of the unit the same but replaces cheese by something more fair.
4 Feb 2019, 17:18 PM
#132
avatar of mons7erz

Posts: 78

After snares added to UKF and the tech changes to USF, I've been thinking about several changes to OKW to overhaul some aspects of the faction so that everyone (both OKW players and Allied players) will have a better experience, while leaving the faction power level roughly the same.

Aim of changes:
- less cheese;
- adress some underperforming units;
- spread OKW fighting power more evenly across early/mid/late game;
- replace cheesy mechanics with fair ones, but ultimately leave units/abilities as powerful as they are now as not to mess with faction balance;
- have minimal impact (no radical changes).

For easy reading I will present changes like patch notes.

Obviously all numbers like prices and stats are subject to change. Focus the discussion on the ideas themselves.


Like some other people here, I came here expecting a rant on how OKW is not winning the game from minute 1.
So firstly, I'd like to thank you for actually LOOKING for fair changes to OKW. Best of all, overlooking your personal Bias (if any).

To start: (In no particular order)

I was a bit unsure when I seen Obers come earlier, but it appears you've given it plenty of thought (not that i have a say in how things are patched).
I like the idea of obers coming earlier, and thats not something you hear everyday from a USF main.
Disabling the LMG until the tech HQ is setup is a solid idea, that way it sort of acts like the weapon racks for USF. I've personally never really had a particular issue with Obers, They come late, sure-but they come armed to the teeth. A solid unit. Annoying to play against, but not in a bad way.

About the ISGs.
From the amounts ive faced, Id say ISG performance is good as it is, They're highly accurate (almost laser guided), decent range, and a good Barrage cooldown. I think the accuracy vet 3 buff is kinda moot.

With Tigers, having the requisite of only 3 tech buildings, and not all HTs, it would definitely come on the field earlier, so the performance should reflect the speed in which it comes out on the field. whether
that should be a buff or nerf, is not up to me.

For the early game;
I think if valks were to be upped due to additional ober support, 280MP is probably a start. I say this because Rifles are 280MP, and usually have similar support. But again, im not in charge.

the the Raketens; I dont see a change is needed-they're a very sneaky and mobile unit, that will always do decent amounts of damage, even if it doesnt pen.

I totally agree with the command panther changes. Not much needs to be said.

In address to strumpios demo charges, I dont see much of a point. Very few units get non-doc demo charges, USF for example, Ass. Engines get demos, as do Paras (timed demos) but both are commander-specific. so maybe add them into fortifications doc or something similar? But i don't see why you'd want to destroy a building for Axis, Units like Valks, MGs and Grens are formidable when garrisoned, besides OKW already have fire nades, which are really good at denying those buildings for X amount of time.

For the OSTWIND.
I agree with most of what you said whole heartily. They need some love. but not too much, but certainly some.
However, they can actually contest Stuarts (heaviest armoured Light vehicle), Just not on the front armour. I've been outplayed by a few people who got behind and shredded me, even 222s can contest from the rear armour, Ive shamefully been done in like that. Plus, you've got the Valks snare, so that does indeed help.

Finally the IR Halftrack. quite possibly the bane in my existence.
I agree with the proposed rework.

Overall, I really like your suggestions. They're fair, and really trying to fit the meta. I never thought OKW needed a rework, but from reading this, I actually agree. there are some flaws that need to be corrected!
4 Feb 2019, 17:49 PM
#133
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1962 | Subs: 3

I was a bit unsure when I seen Obers come earlier, but it appears you've given it plenty of thought (not that i have a say in how things are patched).
I like the idea of obers coming earlier, and thats not something you hear everyday from a USF main.
Disabling the LMG until the tech HQ is setup is a solid idea, that way it sort of acts like the weapon racks for USF. I've personally never really had a particular issue with Obers, They come late, sure-but they come armed to the teeth. A solid unit. Annoying to play against, but not in a bad way.

The thing is, at the moment Obers come out at a time when there are already vet 2+ Guards, 5 men Infantry Sections or BAR Riflemen running around. With Obers being vet 0 at that time (and most of their power coming from their vet), even with their god tier weapon upgrades they trade pretty bad in most engagements until they finally get vet 2.

By allowing them to come ~70 fuel earlier, they can start vetting up against less powerful enemies much sooner. By the time the Schwerer Panzer HQ is fully upgraded, I imagine they can be around vet 2 when they get their big powerspike with weapon upgrades. This way their power should be balanced, while giving OKW the chance to prepare better for the Allied late game vetted and upgraded infantry onslaught.

Moving Obers to the early mid game would give some breathing room to adjust OKW's early game infantry power, I believe.

About the ISGs.
From the amounts ive faced, Id say ISG performance is good as it is, They're highly accurate (almost laser guided), decent range, and a good Barrage cooldown. I think the accuracy vet 3 buff is kinda moot.

I agree that performance is fine, but the veterancy requirements are completely disproportional compared to other mortars. Those can get vet 3 with a few kills and HP damage, while ISGs are barely able to get vet 3 with over 20 kills. I've actually never seen a vet 5 ISG.


In address to strumpios demo charges, I dont see much of a point. Very few units get non-doc demo charges, USF for example, Ass. Engines get demos, as do Paras (timed demos) but both are commander-specific. so maybe add them into fortifications doc or something similar? But i don't see why you'd want to destroy a building for Axis, Units like Valks, MGs and Grens are formidable when garrisoned, besides OKW already have fire nades, which are really good at denying those buildings for X amount of time.

As I mentioned, OKW currently has no effective means to bring down garrissons. This makes them very vulnerable to Forward Headquarters in particular. It also leaves them very vulnerable to Partisan infiltration spawns with no means to defend themselves against that (while Ostheer for example can get flamer pios or HT to burn all the garrissons down).


Overall, I really like your suggestions. They're fair, and really trying to fit the meta. I never thought OKW needed a rework, but from reading this, I actually agree. there are some flaws that need to be corrected!

Good to hear!
4 Feb 2019, 18:11 PM
#134
avatar of mons7erz

Posts: 78


The thing is, at the moment Obers come out at a time when there are already vet 2+ Guards, 5 men Infantry Sections or BAR Riflemen running around. With Obers being vet 0 at that time (and most of their power coming from their vet), even with their god tier weapon upgrades they trade pretty bad in most engagements until they finally get vet 2.

By allowing them to come ~70 fuel earlier, they can start vetting up against less powerful enemies much sooner. By the time the Schwerer Panzer HQ is fully upgraded, I imagine they can be around vet 2 when they get their big powerspike with weapon upgrades. This way their power should be balanced, while giving OKW the chance to prepare better for the Allied late game vetted and upgraded infantry onslaught.

Moving Obers to the early mid game would give some breathing room to adjust OKW's early game infantry power, I believe.


I agree that performance is fine, but the veterancy requirements are completely disproportional compared to other mortars. Those can get vet 3 with a few kills and HP damage, while ISGs are barely able to get vet 3 with over 20 kills. I've actually never seen a vet 5 ISG.



As I mentioned, OKW currently has no effective means to bring down garrissons. This makes them very vulnerable to Forward Headquarters in particular. It also leaves them very vulnerable to Partisan infiltration spawns with no means to defend themselves against that (while Ostheer for example can get flamer pios or HT to burn all the garrissons down).



Good to hear!


I'd like to see obers introduced earlier, if even for the diversity as to the usual valks blob.

in regards to the ISGs;
Perhaps the vet bonuses are a bit disproportional, but I'd still prefer they not get an accuracy buff ^.^; well, not a major one-anyhow.
I have seen a vet 5 ISG. They're scary-but usually they're easy to work around, due to the sheer amounts of skirmishing between points by that point, you're always moving.

For the strumpios;
its a delicate topic, because strum pios already have decent utility, so I feel if you were to add demos (aside from commander specific) you'd need to change something else, or even bring in a specialised squad--something like regular pios with demos-with access to flamers, because that sort of aligns it with its allied counterparts-in terms of access to demos.

4 Feb 2019, 19:06 PM
#135
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1942

Wow how comes I didnt notice this thread before. I expected the usual balance forum nonsense but most of these ideas are actually pretty good

I especially like the nondoc Hetzer and anti building demo idea. Soviet urban defense doc can be autowin vs OKW if you put the FHQ on a concrete house and the enemy doesnt have feuersturm doc.

And most of the bullshit (spec ops doctrine, stealthed raketen walking on corner of the map) is fixed too, I really like it


And I agree on your opinion about Stuka. It is OP af vs stationary targets like team weapons and sometimes even tanks but almost useless vs mobile targets
4 Feb 2019, 20:37 PM
#136
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1942

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2019, 10:50 AMVipper

St44 are simply badly designed and should be redesigned or replaced with mp40. The weapon is too good at all ranges and available in cheap easily accessed infantry.


I have to agree. STG44 is a DPS upgrade across all ranges, it comes with a cheap and reliable squad, the weapon does scatter damage as well and cannot be dropped on top of that.

And it's not like unupgraded volks are terrible (like Riflemen). If their alternatives like Obers, Panzerfusiliers etc would get some love in this potential rework I dont see any issue with removing the stg44 upgrade or reducing it from 2 to 1 STGs
4 Feb 2019, 20:59 PM
#137
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1962 | Subs: 3

Wow how comes I didnt notice this thread before. I expected the usual balance forum nonsense but most of these ideas are actually pretty good

I especially like the nondoc Hetzer and anti building demo idea. Soviet urban defense doc can be autowin vs OKW if you put the FHQ on a concrete house and the enemy doesnt have feuersturm doc.

And most of the bullshit (spec ops doctrine, stealthed raketen walking on corner of the map) is fixed too, I really like it


And I agree on your opinion about Stuka. It is OP af vs stationary targets like team weapons and sometimes even tanks but almost useless vs mobile targets


In my suggestion the Hetzer would still be doctrinal (Ostwind too) but would come ~70 fuel earlier than it currently does in live, which should give it a significant boost in usefulness due to a much bigger shock window. Since it doesn't instawipe squads and doesn't have good armor/hp I don't think it would be overpowered at that timing.

Making it nondoc could be an option, as this would really help OKW with mid-late game blob control (since they lack a vehicle like the Brummbar) but it would be a very significant change. What would you replace it with in the Feuersturm doc?


Glad to hear you like most of the suggestions!
4 Feb 2019, 21:12 PM
#138
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1942



In my suggestion the Hetzer would still be doctrinal (Ostwind too) but would come ~70 fuel earlier than it currently does in live, which should give it a significant boost in usefulness due to a much bigger shock window. Since it doesn't instawipe squads and doesn't have good armor/hp I don't think it would be overpowered at that timing.

Making it nondoc could be an option, as this would really help OKW with mid-late game blob control (since they lack a vehicle like the Brummbar) but it would be a very significant change. What would you replace it with in the Feuersturm doc?


Glad to hear you like most of the suggestions!


Ah sorry my bad, I read that particular part too fast then.

Hmm I think 70 fuel earlier can be really dangerous on Hetzer. I noticed that fast Hetzer rush (medic hq into t4) can already be a threatening strat in the live version if the opponent only has snares and AT guns as his whole antitank source, cuz a Hetzer can wipe an AT gun crew frontally very fast and every single time cuz it doesnt rely on lucky RNG.

Hmm what replacement in the Feuersturm doc... that's actually a really good question. I dont know a sensible answer atm to be 100% honest. Maybe we should forget about my replacement idea for now.

Other than that I just can repeat how good almost all of your ideas are. It really shows you deserve your spot in the patch team, you have a good sense for balance.
5 Feb 2019, 04:42 AM
#139
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 665



I have to agree. STG44 is a DPS upgrade across all ranges, it comes with a cheap and reliable squad, the weapon does scatter damage as well and cannot be dropped on top of that.

And it's not like unupgraded volks are terrible (like Riflemen). If their alternatives like Obers, Panzerfusiliers etc would get some love in this potential rework I dont see any issue with removing the stg44 upgrade or reducing it from 2 to 1 STGs


Actually VG´s are one of the cost ineffective units in the game. Basic grens do between 25% to 35% more damage with significantly better vet and weapon upgrades and their damage is better rounded. only conscripts perform worse . the STG upgrade is also one of the wort dps upgrades btw.
5 Feb 2019, 14:08 PM
#140
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1962 | Subs: 3

Hmm I think 70 fuel earlier can be really dangerous on Hetzer. I noticed that fast Hetzer rush (medic hq into t4) can already be a threatening strat in the live version if the opponent only has snares and AT guns as his whole antitank source, cuz a Hetzer can wipe an AT gun crew frontally very fast and every single time cuz it doesnt rely on lucky RNG.


It would be possible to delay it a bit more by shifting around the fuel for the T4 tech split and the Hetzer's build time. I think the Hetzer in live comes too late, which is why it isn't used much (same for Ostwind). New timings would have to be tested, though personally I don't think it's any more oppressive than something like a fast T-70 when the enemy is unprepared. It isn't incredibly mobile and the casemate makes it clumsy/predictable to use.


Other than that I just can repeat how good almost all of your ideas are. It really shows you deserve your spot in the patch team, you have a good sense for balance.


Thanks!
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