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King Tiger - Is it worth buying?

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4 Dec 2018, 11:17 AM
#81
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2018, 10:55 AMLago


The idea of it was it'd drive forwards into enemy lines and infantry would run up the smoke to avoid HMGs. Nobody uses it like that, but that's why it's there.
...

Smoke does not protect from suppression due to AOE suppression (it actually make things worse).

It has also been patched:

"Churchill MK IV Infantry Support Tank
Given its role as breakthrough unit that can soak up incoming fire. Smoke has also been adjusted to allow the tank to move ahead and cover the advance or to pull back from danger.

...
Smoke ability no longer decreases speed
... "

It is clearly there to be also used as protection similar to other smoke dispensers.
4 Dec 2018, 13:06 PM
#82
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

I'm surprised HEAT isn't the star ability of that doctrine. I'm not sure if the surge in HEAT Pumas and Goliaths this month is going to be a good thing or a bad thing.


Smoke does not protect from suppression


The MG can't shoot if it can't see.
4 Dec 2018, 13:20 PM
#83
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2018, 13:06 PMLago
...The MG can't shoot if it can't see.

It can shoot on the tank and that results in suppressing the infantry behind it, due to AOE suppression.

On the other hand units like the Cromwell can fire smoke on the HMG itself.
4 Dec 2018, 13:31 PM
#84
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Then don't blob right up behind the tank. It leaves a trail.
4 Dec 2018, 13:40 PM
#85
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2018, 13:31 PMLago
Then don't blob right up behind the tank. It leaves a trail.

Ok at this point simply test in game and see what it easier to pull, for avoiding suppression:

1) Firing a smoke round from Cromwell/Sherman on a HMG...
2) Having a Churchill create a smoke screen....

Now can we go back to KT instead of this out of topic pointless debate.
4 Dec 2018, 14:05 PM
#86
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

My suggestion about KT would be lower its armor and have it gain armor via veterancy.

Then we can lower the penetration of allied TDs.
4 Dec 2018, 14:13 PM
#87
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2018, 10:55 AMLago


The idea of it was it'd drive forwards into enemy lines and infantry would run up the smoke to avoid HMGs. Nobody uses it like that, but that's why it's there.

You could give the KT smoke, and it would make it slightly more survivable. But that's not the buff it needs. It needs to be impactful rather than being even more of an unreliable veterancy farm for enemy TDs.



jagdpanzer says 'why won't you love me'

That thing costs and functions the same as an SU-85. If it doesn't have similar penetration already, it probably should.



jp4 has a massive lower pen
4 Dec 2018, 15:17 PM
#88
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2018, 13:40 PMVipper

Ok at this point simply test in game and see what it easier to pull, for avoiding suppression:

1) Firing a smoke round from Cromwell/Sherman on a HMG...
2) Having a Churchill create a smoke screen....

Now can we go back to KT instead of this out of topic pointless debate.


If you think it's off-topic, why did you start it?

jp4 has a massive lower pen


Higher rate of fire though, and facing enemy armies with typically lower armour.

But if it's not doing its job (being OKW's Tank Destroyer) then it probably needs to be looked at. If the medium-clubbing Panther is better at fighting heavies then the JP4 is somewhat redundant.
4 Dec 2018, 15:43 PM
#89
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2018, 15:17 PMLago


If you think it's off-topic, why did you start it?
...

I did not start anything.
I have provided the patch notes that clearly state that smoke from Churchill has also a self defensive role contrary to what some people have claimed.

PLS stop trying to assign blame and move on to anything remotely relevant to KT.
4 Dec 2018, 18:53 PM
#90
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2018, 13:20 PMVipper

It can shoot on the tank and that results in suppressing the infantry behind it, due to AOE suppression.

On the other hand units like the Cromwell can fire smoke on the HMG itself.


Wasn't this fixed.

Fixed a bug where firing at non-infantry targets would suppress nearby infantry. Now suppression platforms will only deal AoE suppression if the primary target is an infantry model.
4 Dec 2018, 21:09 PM
#91
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Wasn't this fixed.

Fixed a bug where firing at non-infantry targets would suppress nearby infantry. Now suppression platforms will only deal AoE suppression if the primary target is an infantry model.

Not sure what the fix was but you can still suppress infantry if you hit a vehicles in front of them, maybe its due to "reroll" hits.
4 Dec 2018, 21:11 PM
#92
avatar of DAZ187

Posts: 465

KT with a JP4 and some raks for bait can be deadly. because you wont see them coming LUL
4 Dec 2018, 21:24 PM
#93
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1217

The KT has its uses and I would even call it meta in case the Schwere WH-Schlepper has been taken out. Instead of having to spend an additional 120 fuel for your next regular tank you can go for the KT for about the same cost.

Problems with the KT are:
1) Commando-Panther blocks the slot and is meta.
2) The OKW Panzer IV has equal/ better anti infantry (especially with vet) for half the cost.

Ever since they adjusted the KT main gun its potential to kill off infantry is just mediocre. And that was the main reason to get the KT.

To solve that it could use some better offensive vet bonuses. This would at least give players some long term motivation to consider a KT over a Panzer IV.

To fix the issue with it being a replacement unit for all other tanks when T3 is down make it buildable from T3 (as an additional requirement to having the trucks called in at least once).
4 Dec 2018, 21:39 PM
#94
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1


2) The OKW Panzer IV has equal/ better anti infantry (especially with vet) for half the cost.


I find the OKW Panzer 4 much more reliable AI compared to the more RNG one shot potential the KT has.

Personally I'd rather take the reliability of the p4 over the RNG of the KT anyday. Not to mention the KT vet requirement is insane while the p4 isn't nearly as difficult to vet up so as you said it performs better.


Maybe more reliable AI inplace of AOE so it doesnt return to wipe machine but actually has reliable AI worth its cost?
4 Dec 2018, 22:08 PM
#95
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833



It doesn't gib models consistantly, that's the problem.


Why don't you open up testmod right now with two blobs of rifles, one next to a KT and one next to a P4 and let me know how you get on.

Unreliable would be something like the Comet that is lucky to hit a gren model every two or three shots, yet I see a constant stream of "buff KT uber tank threads". Thats not to say I don't agree with giving KT some more mobility with vet (like how its turret was irl). But the gun is fine and so are allied tank destroyers, lest we go back to the days of jacksons bouncing three shots in a row on KT armour.

pretty sure ullumu would have a wetdream if times reverted to this
4 Dec 2018, 22:17 PM
#96
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4



Why don't you open up testmod right now with two blobs of rifles, one next to a KT and one next to a P4 and let me know how you get on.

Unreliable would be something like the Comet that is lucky to hit a gren model every two or three shots, yet I see a constant stream of "buff KT uber tank threads". Thats not to say I don't agree with giving KT some more mobility with vet (like how its turret was irl). But the gun is fine and so are allied tank destroyers, lest we go back to the days of jacksons bouncing three shots in a row on KT armour.

pretty sure ullumu would have a wetdream if times reverted to this


The problem with this scenario is your rifles are next to the KT. What person puts rifles next to a KT? At KT max range of 50 the scatter is as bad as the IS2. At minimum 35 range against infantry unless they have AT weapons on them or they're attempting to snare. Any closer and you have potential threat of being shot at by a TD or getting snared.

Of course units are more likely to hit at 0 range. That's like saying the HE sherman should be tested at range 0 where it has the highest penetration of any nondoc medium, ontop of best utility and AI wiping power, all for 110F.
4 Dec 2018, 22:22 PM
#97
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

Also a stationary test like that would be mostly invalid as you always have to start pre-emptively backing up your KT as soon as you see infantry anywhere near because they can run as fast as it can reverse and getting snared to crawling speed is a death sentence. The scatter on the move is absolutely atrocious.
4 Dec 2018, 23:57 PM
#98
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607



The problem with this scenario is your rifles are next to the KT. What person puts rifles next to a KT?


How else would you snare it? It's not unreasonable, though perhaps not the norm.
5 Dec 2018, 02:30 AM
#99
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 369

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2018, 21:11 PMDAZ187
KT with a JP4 and some raks for bait can be deadly. because you wont see them coming LUL


270mp + 270mp + 720mp & 280 Fuel + 350mp & 135 Fuel, to have a chance to fight allied armour.

This is also like 50% of your popcap.
5 Dec 2018, 03:41 AM
#100
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4



How else would you snare it? It's not unreasonable, though perhaps not the norm.


15-20 range is normal for snares. Not 0

Tested KT

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/344835886

Test #1: All units stationary, range 50

Test #2: Squads moving, KT stationary, range 50

Test #3: KT moving, squads stationary, range 50

Test #4: KT and squads moving, KT avoiding snare

Test #5: KT engine crit speed comparison with moving squad, Jackson attacking.

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