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1vs1 Removing map from automatch

1 Aug 2018, 02:16 AM
#41
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1019 | Subs: 1


1. Relic give almost /no ressoruce to improve coh1 or coh2. This game is old and they focus on new projects. Means the patches are community based.

Lets use the leeway that relic has given the community to show them how powerful our participation can be instead of using the same, inefficient "lets vote in 1 thread on 1 site" solutions that have been used since the dawn of COH. It used to be used out of necessity but now we have better tools and way more powerful possibilities if we choose to use them.


2. Yes I don't have that hardcore scope as it is for unitpatches. Because DBP was such a success, so Relic gives me alot of freespace. But 1 thing is clear from RELIC: They don't want to remove many maps. Aka to have only like 6 maps in 1vs1. So removing maps is not that easy to bargain from relic as you guys maybe think. Same counts for adding new maps into automatch. Don't forget; Its THEIR GAME.

14 maps is not 6. Whatever minimum they can stomach should be aimed for considering some of the lower quality maps still in rotation. And you shouldn't have to bargain with them. Relic has to see the merit in this reality and the potential to possibly double the quality of the map pool. It is their game, as I stated in my last post.


3. It is super fucking time gorging. Most people have 0 idea how much time it cost. And that for free!

Yea anyone who puts as much time in this as you do should be paid something, not joking. Some people have put thousands upon thousands of hours into COH. You are one of them, which is outstanding. And I 100% understand how much time it takes.


4. The first big improvement happend in the DBP. And i think I can say, it was a super success the mappatch at all; reworking and removing maps. So that should speak for me, that I understand something about maps; Whiteflash. Yes I self never created an own map. I don't have this time. Tho I would say I learnt alot about how maps and WB works and why some maps are bad other good. The next fact is, that I play 1vs1 to 4vs4. So all Gamemode on a high lv (less played in 1vs1 tho. That's why i am very careful in 1vs1 map decision!). So i know the gamestyle on the maps. If not, I could not make all this decisions (from strategy)

True, and agreed that patch was an improvement love to see it, the bar set by the map pool in the past was very low to be fair.


5. But thats why I self don't change the maps. I tell / ask mapmakers to make the changes. So i can't fuck up the map :P Tho I have always to double check their works and like: they cutting a fence, but its to small for britpak. But works for normal inf and other paks. Or they replace a house, but you can't go inside the house. Or they add the HP from the house, but its not working, or they just forget to remove a car; putting some wood things to green cover or bushes, so that units will stay in yellow cover and not green cover; houses with 1 doors, etc. Happend all already. There is alot difference between WB and ingame.

This is one of my biggest problems. Your the one person telling the mappers what to do. This is where your lack of skill in map design and your insistence to take charge of mapping enterprises is a problem. The amount of potential decisions needed to be made to balance a map has to come from an enormous amount of time invested in each map. Thoroughness and design experience is key. Not just experience with the worldbuilder, but experience designing ladder worthy maps. With respect, you don't have the experience and you definitely don't have the time to be thorough because your doing so much stuff for the community as is.


6. Top 10 players from 1vs1, 2vs2: When you work a while in this buisness ( Maps or unit patch) you will see very fast 2 things:
First many of them don't care in start to improve anything. This would cost THEIR TIME LUL. Its always easier to complain, when the unitpatch or mappatch is out.
Second many of them can say you: This map is unfair or the brits vs wehrmacht etc. But they tell you only the obvious thing. Not WHY it is. Its always like: North side is easier / OP, but don't ask me why. Reason: They don't know the stats from the units or the pathing, timing from each points. Best example: Nobody said from top players in 1vs1 ever, that like fuel or vp points are wrong from timing on famyonville.

This is where your lack of map design will again, cause problems. Your first point is only partly true, people complain and are affected by their bias when they win (think the map is great) and when they lose (think the map is bad). The experience of the mapper will be the filter to remove the bias and understand the map as a system and adjust the design as the mapper sees fit. If you have an inexperienced mapper or some kind of manager (you in this case) dictating changes the map wont be improved as much as it could be otherwise.

Your second point is true, and thats why thoroughness and design experience is critical. If those two things are ignored then the quality will suffer, and things will move slower.


7. Indeed, when someone had bring good infos and time for a special map, I had consider to let the map in the pool as well. But my time is limited. I personal think this Mappatch will be awesome again. Alot of good changes are in.

Agreed


8. When I think back before DBP about ingame situation. I always self was complaining about maps and had no idea what maps gets my veto. Because I needed like dobule amount of vetos to get rip of all the bad maps. Right now i acutally have sometimes the case, that I have 1 veto remaining in 3vs3, 4vs4. And in somecase in 2vs2 as well. So i think the system of work kind of work. The map and mappool in the automatch are way better now. When you think back in the past, how it was. I personal would not want to play in 2016-2017 back^^. Pls don't forget that. I always have the feeling for some people: " you give them the small finger, and they just grab for the whole hand"

Better, but the past map pool was an extremely low bar to set. The 3v3 and 4v4 pool are in desperate need of upgrade.


9. I think the poll for the DBP for removing maps from 1vs1-4vs4 each worked very well. Had around 100 people voting for each modus. I personal always prefer to have more data instead of only 1. And yes there i put almost all maps to vote. This time I did not; REASON: I knew people did not checked the reworked version out from westwall, lost glider, angoville etc. They almost never do. So it would make the poll wrong. It happend already for unitpatch mod: We asked always: Did you played the mod, before you vote, but we all know you just can lie LUL.

100 people voted per mode. 100.

There were, just in 2v2 mode, about 430,000 games played when this data was procured. How can you possibly think that 100 people voting in 2v2 is more illustrative of reality than this much data.


Again this data and much more of it if Relic were willing to share, with expert players and expert mappers could work in conjunction to generate better map quality faster and more effectively than the current solution.


10. Stats about how often a map got picked/ played: You asked why I think they are not that strong. I see you really like and prefer Stats, whiteflash.
The game is not only played from top 100 players! So alot of games happens on low elo as well. Don't forget that!
And about Road to khaorkov. The only way I can explain it to me, why it is the second most picked map:
People think: " Hey, I have a 50% chance, that I get south side and almost a freewin on a map. feelsgoodman". North side is really hard to play. So acutally this map should be completed on the bottom on the played maps.
--> Means the stats does not work here very well. Because when you are the second most palyed map from like 20 maps; this map should be super good! Oh wait :P

[b]This is a PRC list for designing systems for NASA.[/b]
This is one of dozens of specifications that you have to be familiar with and understand to design anything for the environments and applications that are involved in aerospace engineering. I work with these every single day, which is a tiny portion of what my experience base involves in RL. Im not bragging I'm pointing out something. I don't "prefer" stats, they are the basis for good design and clear thinking and rational decision making.

The power and potential of statistical analysis and large swaths of data are so huge that it would be, at best, irresponsible to ignore them and we are lucky to have the luxury to obtain them at all.

SiphonX for president 2020


11. Since you think poll and asking the community is timewaste, we will not ask them about 2vs2. I just will announce here right now for people, who are interest in maps and read this whole thread: 1 2vs2 map will get removed! Hype.

:facepalm:



12. Next problem is Wintermaps. Relic and me prefer to have wintermaps in this game. It looks good and you have skins for your vehicles in winterversion; its a part of this game. Yes I agree to have the complete same map in sommer and winter makes not really sense. And for people who hates the map anyway, it cost them 2 vetos for 1 gamestyle-map :(
So right now there will be follow Wintermaps:
1vs1: Westwall and Semoskiy Winter
2vs2: Moscow Winter and Semoskiy Winter
3vs3: Resh Winter, Oka river and Lagleize
4vs4: Vielsam and Lagleize

I hope I could bring some light in this here all.

Ok


My main point again, is that you aren't an experienced ladder mapper, you aren't even a regular mapper. Its damn hard to be a good competitive mapper. And the approaches that are being taken to improve the map pool is not the best approach. The rational for the map changes cant come from 1 guy whos mapping experience is as low as it is, especially when you have guys who have more than enough experience and skill to do the job, and im not talking about USING the worldbuilder, I'm talking about making the design decisions and solving the design problems and being the filter for information from people, that's extremely difficult if you don't have experience.

If coh2.org is going to have a contact point for map overhaul it should go through someone that is at least qualified to do this job. That person should be the lead mapper for COH2.org, which in this case is Tric. And he should be able to use his discretion to communicate with Relic about changes to the map pool.

You can support him if you like, anyone can but to have someone that is in your position leading ladder mapping solutions with your current approaches to drive development is crude at best. Sorry once again if this seems like I'm being abrasive, its not my intention. The map pools improvement is and always has been the goal. You must understand that we both want the same thing. Im offering a better path forward. I hope my experience and mapping products speak for themselves.

I also appreciate the continued support of everyone. Thanks.
1 Aug 2018, 09:34 AM
#42
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 569

The problem is, the guy with the most influence in this decision strongly favours quantity and variety over quality. This is the guy that tried telling me semosky should stay in the map pool even though the community hated it. He has put his support behind improving westwall when it is extremely unlikely that rommel will change the map enough(ie remove dragons teeth and elevation ) because his map theme is more important than general opinion. Many top players argue that the map is beyond saving yet panther ignores those opinions or argue to the contary.

If the situation is that relic don't have the time or money or even give a f*** any more then simply say that and move on, but don't argue the point just as a matter of personal principal or pride.

The biggest mistake this game has ever made and continues to make is the foolish belief that more is more when in fact more is almost certainly less.

Whiteflash is 100% right and any intelligent person knows that, the issue is if it can be achieved.
1 Aug 2018, 09:46 AM
#43
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 1983 | Subs: 17

The problem is, the guy with the most influence in this decision strongly favours quantity and variety over quality. This is the guy that tried telling me semosky should stay in the map pool even though the community hated it. He has put his support behind improving westwall when it is extremely unlikely that rommel will change the map enough(ie remove dragons teeth and elevation ) because his map theme is more important than general opinion. Many top players argue that the map is beyond saving yet panther ignores those opinions or argue to the contary.

If the situation is that relic don't have the time or money or even give a f*** any more then simply say that and move on, but don't argue the point just as a matter of personal principal or pride.

The biggest mistake this game has ever made and continues to make is the foolish belief that more is more when in fact more is almost certainly less.

Whiteflash is 100% right and any intelligent person knows that, the issue is if it can be achieved.



+1


1 Aug 2018, 09:48 AM
#44
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 4395 | Subs: 12

The problem is, the guy with the most influence in this decision strongly favours quantity and variety over quality. This is the guy that tried telling me semosky should stay in the map pool even though the community hated it. He has put his support behind improving westwall when it is extremely unlikely that rommel will change the map enough(ie remove dragons teeth and elevation ) because his map theme is more important than general opinion. Many top players argue that the map is beyond saving yet panther ignores those opinions or argue to the contary.


1. Semoksiy sommer is not there anymore.

2. Did ever checked the reworked version from westwall? I don't have this feeling.
https://www.coh2.org/topic/81041/westwall

3. I know for many people its hard to adapt on a map. They always want to play 1 single tactic on every map. Why they should use their brain and use different gamestyle on different maps LUL.

It is boring for automatch just to play on 1 single mapstyle


If the situation is that relic don't have the time or money or even give a f*** any more then simply say that and move on, but don't argue the point just as a matter of personal principal or pride.


Well scroll back i guess.

Well based on the options provided, minsk and arnhem need to go. Another thing to note, based on gathering data from vetoes is that some people, like myself do not veto some of the worst maps because I can assume most people in my ELO will veto it for me so U can use it on another map. So for example when semois summer was in the pool i would leave it unticked when searching as certain factions. If enough people do this OR there are people who dont veto at all then it would be certainly greater than our margin of error, making that data insubstantial in determine the worst maps. Food for thought


I guess you mean KFW and minsk?
And good point, but for that people would need to use their brain :P
I did the same with semokisy summer. And almost never got this map :)

Since DBP you have anyway alot of vetos now to really kick out maps, you don't prefer.

And it is still automatch. No Cup or what ever. I have no problem to have only 4 1vs1 maps in cup. But automatch can and should be fun to play and with variety of maps.
Ofc only to a special amount of variety to quality. Thats why atm no WoT or AA maps will go into automatch. It needs a balance between both.
1 Aug 2018, 11:14 AM
#45
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 957


...


Why not help Sturmpanther with the map patch like other mappers do? Why only write self-righteous stuff on Coh2.org instead of doing something productive that would actually help instead of questioning everything Sturmpanther does? I am 100% sure that Sturmpanther would appreciate the help.

You can rework maps and thus improve automatch map pool but you choose not to. I wonder why?

And something else: get of your high horse. I have no idea where your sense of superiority comes from but I can guarantee you that it´s unwarranted. You come across as a huge dick that thinks he is Jesus himself just because he made ONE good coh2 map.



1 Aug 2018, 11:17 AM
#46
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 957


Whatever minimum they can stomach should be aimed for


Garbage. You have enough vetoes to veto the maps you don´t like already. Removing more maps is just going to piss off the average Coh2 player and make the game even more dull.
1 Aug 2018, 11:56 AM
#47
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 569


I know for many people its hard to adapt on a map. They always want to play 1 single tactic on every map. Why they should use their brain and use different gamestyle on different maps LUL.

It is boring for automatch just to play on 1 single mapstyle


Please stop assuming my problem is that I refuse to adapt, you have no idea if I play the same or if I mix it up every single game.

There are numerous issues with Westwall and they become more apparent with every game. Yes I have checked out the updated version and the improvements are welcome but the dragons teeth and elevation are too inconsistent and difficult to recognize(quality issue). The reason this is a problem is because in the heat of battle the player may not notice that his tank is about to get into trouble on tank traps. It may have been better if the teeth ran direction wise diagonally from the corners opposite the bases, then tanks could back up in a straight line instead of turning. The elevation is also inconsistant with some shots still hitting terrain and objects. I also notice pak guns will phase through the smaller tank traps but not the larger ones, again this at a glance will be misleading. There are other issues relating to the cutoffs and the layout in that area that are also still problematic. The centre also too open making flanking mgs too easy and at the same time flanking snipers almost imposibble. There also seems to be to much unnecessary small clutter on the dragons teeth. All of this could be improved with input from more experience mapmakers.

The other thing I find interesting is you advocate different playstyles yet this is a map that is more likely to be played the same way because the player cannot realisticlly contest either fuel so cap order will almost always be the same. Now compare that to a map like crossroads for instance where you can contest either fuel and change playstyle accordingly.

My Final point is good map design will give the player the option to change playstyle if he wishes, where as a bad map forces the player to change. A subtle difference, but one that is more likely to come about from a more though process such as what Whiteflash is advocating.
1 Aug 2018, 12:08 PM
#48
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 569



Garbage. You have enough vetoes to veto the maps you don´t like already. Removing more maps is just going to piss off the average Coh2 player and make the game even more dull.


I don't care how many maps they have to be honest, but if they won't fix ones that have huge problems then they shouldn't remain just for variety. I always veto westwall because of cut off and poor centre design. Minsk because of the vp's and line of sight issues from trees. Semosky winter for so many reasons. Then it is a toss up between Kharkov and Glider. I will play none of these by choice or for variety because it always creates frustration for one reason or another and it has nothing to do with not adapting my playstyle.
1 Aug 2018, 12:39 PM
#49
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1019 | Subs: 1



Why not help Sturmpanther with the map patch like other mappers do? Why only write self-righteous stuff on Coh2.org instead of doing something productive that would actually help instead of questioning everything Sturmpanther does? I am 100% sure that Sturmpanther would appreciate the help.

You can rework maps and thus improve automatch map pool but you choose not to. I wonder why?

Reworking maps that arent salvagable is, by definition, a waste of time. But that isnt what this is about, you have lost sight of what started this. Its this community voting on ladder maps that is the problem I have.



And something else: get of your high horse. I have no idea where your sense of superiority comes from but I can guarantee you that it´s unwarranted. You come across as a huge dick that thinks he is Jesus himself just because he made ONE good coh2 map.


Many tournaments & SNF 4: Argentan Crossroads COH1
In ladder: Alsace Moselle COH1
In ladder: Crossroads COH2
In ladder: Alliance of Defiance COH2
Poised to be better than Crossroads: Nexus COH2

And I've done much more than make those 5 maps, Ive helped Relic at their request more times than I can count. You don't understand my contributions to the coh1 & coh2 map pool, and thats OK. I dont want this thread to get toxic because of 1 person (you) who doesnt understand. Please show civility. And dont lose sight of this fact:The ladder map pools improvement is and always has been the goal.
1 Aug 2018, 12:40 PM
#50
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1019 | Subs: 1

And I appreciate the repsonses Sturmpanther, I'm sorry if this comes off abrasive. I just hope some thought is put into considering the approaches I laid out and reconsidering voting to improve the ladder map pool. Process is critical to success.
1 Aug 2018, 12:44 PM
#51
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 4395 | Subs: 12





I did not said that you can't adapt. And it was funny to read your arguments :)

Btw next time maybe just give advises in the single threads for the maps and help to improve them? Instead of blame/ flame always after it?^^


And I appreciate the repsonses Sturmpanther, I'm sorry if this comes off abrasive. I just hope some thought is put into considering the approaches I laid out and reconsidering voting to improve the ladder map pool. Process is critical to success.


As i said already before. The vote / Poll was never the head of the solution what should get removed.
I never said that Relic or me removed just because of a Poll.
It is just a extra feature. You really lost your mind in these poll i have the feeling.

But attacking me about that I have no idea about map is just sad, sorry.

1 Aug 2018, 12:55 PM
#52
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 957


Reworking maps that arent salvagable is, by definition, a waste of time. But that isnt what this is about, you have lost sight of what started this. Its this community voting on ladder maps that is the problem I have.


Many tournaments & SNF 4: Argentan Crossroads COH1
In ladder: Alsace Moselle COH1
In ladder: Crossroads COH2
In ladder: Alliance of Defiance COH2
Poised to be better than Crossroads: Nexus COH2

And I've done much more than make those 5 maps, Ive helped Relic at their request more times than I can count. You don't understand my contributions to the coh1 & coh2 map pool, and thats OK. I dont want this thread to get toxic because of 1 person (you) who doesnt understand. Please show civility. And dont lose sight of this fact:The ladder map pools improvement is and always has been the goal.


I call you out on your rudeness and unwarranted sense of superiority. That´s not being toxic. Being toxic is what you did, pretending that this is about the map pool in order to hide what really is behind these walls of text that you like to write. You mentioned like 10 times that Sturmpanther isn´t competent. Why not show some fucking respect and appreciation of what he does instead of just blindly bashing everything for no reason. Unlike you Sturmpanther has a good understanding of all aspects of COH2, be it 1v1, teamgames, balance, maps etc. Not all of what he did is perfect but since he started cooperating with Relic we have seen a huge improvement in the map pool and banning of people who cheat/are toxic in game and we should all thank him for that. Your approach would have gotten us nowhere because it´s still Relic´s game after all and whatever changes the community wants need to be agreed on by Relic. Calling Relic stupid and saying everything they did is wrong is not going to improve anything.

And who decides which maps are salvageable and which maps aren´t? You? And this still doesn´t answer my question regarding why you don´t contribute to the upcoming map patch. Other map makers are contributing but you aren´t. Despite pretending to be aiming for improving the map pool.
1 Aug 2018, 16:20 PM
#53
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2711 | Subs: 1


As i said already before. The vote / Poll was never the head of the solution what should get removed.
I never said that Relic or me removed just because of a Poll.
It is just a extra feature. You really lost your mind in these poll i have the feeling.


It's not like this is public knowledge. The inner workings of these decisions are a bit at the root of things here. It isn't communicated or described to anyone except a select few individuals. It appears as of late this role has fallen onto you Sturmpanther.

Why not help Sturmpanther with the map patch like other mappers do?


I don't think you understand the timeline or the history of map making and patching with Relic. :D

A lot of changes can be made to buy a few months time before the novelty wears off. Very few changes can be made that will introduce more dynamic and replayable matches. And that's not even yet considering whether all possible faction combinations and start locations are balanced. Hell, a lot of maps are unchanged from the time there were only two factions.

There's a balanced, unbiased way to approach making and patching maps. This appears to be a pipe dream to achieve, unfortunately. The fact that there's any argument in this thread whatsoever is what drives me insane. Relic is nowhere to be seen and we're being defensive with each other.
Only Relic postRelic 1 Aug 2018, 17:23 PM
#54
avatar of Andy_RE
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 42 | Subs: 16

Hey all,

I'll kick this off by saying that I'm not here to justify every decision that we make made regarding the pool, or get drawn into a debate, I'm just going to make a few points.

Firstly, both we at Relic, and the community at large, are extremely lucky to have community members like Sturmpanther dedicating significant amounts of their time and energy to the game. Without him and a number of others behind the scenes, we wouldn’t be able to achieve all that we have for COH2. I understand people have their own views about how we run the map pool, but that doesn’t fall on Sturmpanther’s shoulders, so let’s keep it chill chaps.

Sturmpanther has been collaborating with established map makers such Rosbone, MonolithicBacon, Capiqua, SiphonX, Lordrommell and Wuff to suggest, test and implement changes to an impressive amount of maps. Many of these mappers have also dedicated significant time and energy to this project, so major props to them too.

It’s our opinion that Sturmpanther is very good at this kind of work. While he may not be a whizz with world builder, we have plenty of mappers who are. Sturm has an eye for map balance (having caught issues which have long gone undetected), an analytical approach, and puts in a ridiculous amount of effort, like …seriously ridiculous. He’s also a very good COH2 player across all game modes. Mappers have spoken to me positively about the volume and quality of feedback/collaboration generated by him in this project.

Good news! We are using data! Some confusion has popped up because this poll is perceived as the method by which we are removing maps, which isn’t the case. We’re leaning on data to remove the least popular, non-reworked maps in the game. This poll was for supplemental data, as we wanted to see if the more hardcore 1vs1 player skew on this site reflected the overall data.

Different folks want different things from the pool. Hyper-competitive players, or players more closely aligned with that scene, would prefer a significantly reduced map pool, containing only the most balanced maps. On the flipside, there are plenty of lower ranked, more casual players who want a wide variety of maps in automatch. Variety is important to us, and we don’t want to remove too many maps, but we want to strike a balance between the different perspectives.

To maintain map variety and game character, we are keen to see if reworks can make some unpopular maps more viable. If the reworks don't pan out, we will consider removing them at a later date.

Cheers,

Andy
1 Aug 2018, 17:27 PM
#55
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1019 | Subs: 1

1 Aug 2018, 18:39 PM
#56
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2869

Can we please not remove maps that make the pool more varied and interesting like minsk and arnhem? I agree that arnhem has its problems but it is also a unique design. Minsk has a missing texture in the middle but apart from that it is a solid map that supports some stratiegies that are not seen on other maps.

In case of kholodny, I guess the problem is the smallest as there is a summer version in the pool although I would still like to keep it in for two reasons. First because there are very little winter maps left in the pool and the game is about eastern front, second becouse kholodny is the first map shown to the public and in general the agnoville of coh2, the game has been made to work well on this map and has been tested on this map since original beta. So I think it is very good to see it more often in automatch, even better that there are small changes between summer and winter versions.
1 Aug 2018, 22:10 PM
#57
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 4395 | Subs: 12

Can we please not remove maps that make the pool more varied and interesting like minsk and arnhem? I agree that arnhem has its problem but it is also a unique design.


Arnheim will stay.
2 Aug 2018, 00:04 AM
#58
avatar of LordRommel
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 236 | Subs: 1



Please stop assuming my problem is that I refuse to adapt, you have no idea if I play the same or if I mix it up every single game.

There are numerous issues with Westwall and they become more apparent with every game. Yes I have checked out the updated version and the improvements are welcome but the dragons teeth and elevation are too inconsistent and difficult to recognize(quality issue). The reason this is a problem is because in the heat of battle the player may not notice that his tank is about to get into trouble on tank traps. It may have been better if the teeth ran direction wise diagonally from the corners opposite the bases, then tanks could back up in a straight line instead of turning. The elevation is also inconsistant with some shots still hitting terrain and objects. I also notice pak guns will phase through the smaller tank traps but not the larger ones, again this at a glance will be misleading. There are other issues relating to the cutoffs and the layout in that area that are also still problematic. The centre also too open making flanking mgs too easy and at the same time flanking snipers almost imposibble. There also seems to be to much unnecessary small clutter on the dragons teeth. All of this could be improved with input from more experience mapmakers.

The other thing I find interesting is you advocate different playstyles yet this is a map that is more likely to be played the same way because the player cannot realisticlly contest either fuel so cap order will almost always be the same. Now compare that to a map like crossroads for instance where you can contest either fuel and change playstyle accordingly.

My Final point is good map design will give the player the option to change playstyle if he wishes, where as a bad map forces the player to change. A subtle difference, but one that is more likely to come about from a more though process such as what Whiteflash is advocating.


First of all; I have experiance in CoH map making since CoH 1. So i know how to work with the tool.
But i think u have posted a wonderful expample of what went wrong with the CoH 2 community.

Westwall was released in 2016. So the map is already 2 years old. It was part of the map contest and part of the last major map rework. I'm working on the map when there is enough information to enforce the map quality (basing on map problems - not on balance problems!).

A lot of people have complained about the dragon teeth and the map elevation. The new version is already smoothed and thinned out. Perhaps the elevation is not perfect. Problem here; there is no tool to show/enforce the map high terrain level/stage. As far as i know the CoH 2 engine shouldnt have problems with elevations up to 1m to prevent shoot blocking by terrain elevation. I tried to reduce the elevation to 1m (the old elevation ranged between 1,5~2m). So when there are still shoot blocking elevation elements please provide me with detailed information (e.g. screenshot).
Same story with the dragon teeth line. Basing on ingame pathfinding and wb precise map layer the pathfinding should have improved a lot. Sure. U can always manoeuvre your tank in a dead end but to be honest most maps have vehicle blocking/path blocking obstacles and structures. With the new version it should be way easier for tanks and small vehicles to drive between the obstacles because there is more range for pathfinding calculation. To be honest i'm still thinking about one or two points where i could try to improve the pathing without reducing visual style/flair of the map.
For the map layout: I think no one has tried to stop you from making/posting a new layout concept. When u are capable of working with the WB you can make a layout proposals with the WB or you use simple tools like paint. So instate of complaining about those kind of problems it would be easy for you to post a feedback with a reworked sector proposals. That would be helpful (or a constructive feedback). But i get the point; it is easier to complain instate of try it by yourself (new map makers are always welcome).

So i'm willing to work on the map.

But here is the main problem:
I have already said that Westwall was released in 2016. Since 2016 i got a number of hate posts/mail [or a death threat] for my maps (particular Westwall). On steam there are 4 comments for the reworked version only! During the map contest the feedback was a shame. Twitch streamers have bashed map creators without talking with them. I know that there were some nasty attacks back in those days (jeah. Old story but still a good example what should never repeat).
So It seems to me that this community can complain only. I'm asking for solide, validated feedback/improvement information/comments SINCE 2016.
What should i do when everything i get is a hateful post by a coh2 user or a steam discussion thread with comments like "cancer map", "boring map", ect ect.

I think a lot of people cant/wont appreciate what Sturmpanther is doing here. He is trying to enforce the map pool with limited resources. He is doing the work Relic should have done back in 2013 when CoH2 was released. Now they have abandon the game because there is no more profit to make (or to be honest the costs for new patches/content outstrip the income that is generated by CoH2 because people always forget that a company has to pay its bills [and a patch is expansive]).

Thanks to Sturmpanther and his feedback i'm working on Westwall. I'm in contact with Sturmpanther to talk about Westwall and other maps.
So i hope u can see that i'm passionated about map making plus i'm always trying to create a fun to play map for the community.

To end here i would have some wishs for the future:
@skemshead - sorry, u are the example here because u have posted but it is a general list for any user so please dont misinterpret my wishs ;)
Please post constructive feedback. Add as much valide information as possible for your feedback because map makers like me need any information we can get.
You are always welcome to use any platform to leave feedback or comments (Steam, CoH2.org, Relic board, ect ect). But please use those platforms. Try to help instate of complain. No one here is forcing you into working with the WB but there are a lot of ways to help a mapmaker to improve his map and to improve the pvp map pool in all.

Thank you very much,
Lord Rommel, a CoH 2 map creator.
2 Aug 2018, 04:27 AM
#59
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 707 | Subs: 2

Arnheim will stay.

Will it get reworked? Can we change the name to jotunheim :P

EDIT: Oh wait I did not respond correctly: That map is cancer :foreveralone:
2 Aug 2018, 06:00 AM
#60
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 957

...


Very good post. Makes me happy that this is what Relic thinks about the situation.
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