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russian armor

SU-76

11 Jul 2018, 18:38 PM
#21
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

u know, the radar and the 60 range are not bad


1. what good is 60 range with an inaccurate gun?

2. radar? u mean tracking? id guess it is good... but not enough to redeem the SU since focused sight (SU-85) is cheaper... which further proves my point of the SU-76 being obsolete by the time T4 comes out...
11 Jul 2018, 18:48 PM
#22
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 798

tracking is such a stupid ability, why would I want to track infantry with AT vehicles?
11 Jul 2018, 18:49 PM
#23
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6417 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 18:34 PMgbem


1. mmkay ill take that one... however it must be noted that almost all high armor units are all in the axis faction... high penetration on an axis AT platform only really helps against the IS-2 ISU-152 pershing churchill and comet... 2 of those tanks belonging to the weakest faction ingame in contrast to the tiger/ace panther/okw/command elefant jagdtiger jagdpanzer 4 panzer 4H brummbar all of which can bounce SU-76 AT shells... even with both tanks on a stopgap AT role the StuG is clearly more valuable even with lesser penetration...

2. ive already called for vet nerfs... it isnt a good idea for the soviets to be a veteran heavy faction anyways..

Check armor value again and check chance to penetrate for SU-76, with nerfs to Panther few axis units have high armor.

Once more keep in mind that Stug is more expensive in cost, pop and tech cost.

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 18:48 PMzerocoh
tracking is such a stupid ability, why would I want to track infantry with AT vehicles?

Tracking increase sight range and provides mini map info allowing the SU-76 to enemy vehicles from longer ranges and barrage with better accuracy.

It's sight bonus is broken on SU-85 with focus sight.
11 Jul 2018, 18:53 PM
#24
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 18:48 PMzerocoh
tracking is such a stupid ability, why would I want to track infantry with AT vehicles?


for starters the SU-76 is a dual purpose vehicle... IRL it was used as stopgap AT... but also primarily as a very capable HE platform especially when firing as an assault gun...

"The SU-76M virtually replaced infantry tanks in the close support role. Its thin armour and open top made it vulnerable to antitank weapons, grenades, and small arms. Its light weight and low ground pressure gave it good mobility. "

ingame it should play more like the m8 (without smoke) with stopgap AT performance really...
11 Jul 2018, 18:59 PM
#25
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3253 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 18:35 PMgbem


35 muni hurts that ability hard...

The Soviet don't lack for munitions seeing as they don't have a sink. Weapon upgrades? Nope. Pintle mgs? Nope. Fancy pants weapon racks? Nerp. Bunkers to lick down areas without population cost? Nohohope. Cheap mines and situation abilities are all they have to spend muni on unless you pick a doctrine with a sink.
11 Jul 2018, 19:10 PM
#26
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 18:49 PMVipper

Check armor value again and check chance to penetrate for SU-76, with nerfs to Panther few axis units have high armor.

Once more keep in mind that Stug is more expensive in cost, pop and tech cost.


Tracking increase sight range and provides mini map info allowing the SU-76 to enemy vehicles from longer ranges and barrage with better accuracy.

It's sight bonus is broken on SU-85 with focus sight.


soo lets compare the most heavily armored non doctrinal non british tanks to their counterparts
1. SU-76 vs panther... 180 pen vs 260 armor... StuG vs M4a3 sherman...170 vs 160...

2. yes the stug is more expensive and is wehrmacht`s dedicated AT tank destroyer hence it shoots more accurately has lower target size has a dedicated AT ability (target weakpoint) has more HP has more armor and does more damage

3. the SU-76 is supposed to be stopgap AT(anti medium)-capable HE platform... problem is its neither good anti medium nor a capable HE platform... and by the time T4 is unlocked it becomes obsolete
11 Jul 2018, 19:14 PM
#27
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341


The Soviet don't lack for munitions seeing as they don't have a sink. Weapon upgrades? Nope. Pintle mgs? Nope. Fancy pants weapon racks? Nerp. Bunkers to lick down areas without population cost? Nohohope. Cheap mines and situation abilities are all they have to spend muni on unless you pick a doctrine with a sink.


as a soviet player id say never let ur muni float unless u have a doctrinal ability in mind... i try to keep it below 200 at best by spamming as many mines as i can... its fairly effective tbh to the point where i can safely skip the SU-76 and head straight to the SU-85/T-34-85... also the soviets have 1 real muni sink and thats engie flamers...
11 Jul 2018, 19:32 PM
#28
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3225 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 18:48 PMzerocoh
tracking is such a stupid ability, why would I want to track infantry with AT vehicles?


+1

Of the few things I agree with Zero with, this is one of them.
11 Jul 2018, 19:44 PM
#29
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6417 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 19:10 PMgbem


soo lets compare the most heavily armored non doctrinal non british tanks to their counterparts
1. SU-76 vs panther... 180 pen vs 260 armor... StuG vs M4a3 sherman...170 vs 160...

...

If you seriously think that Panther is in the same class with Sherman and should be used in comparison, there is little point continuing this.

If in you opinion Su-76 should counter the Panther frontally, there is little point continuing this.

Ostheer PzIV has 180 Armor that gives Su-76 100% chance to penetrate at range 60. I am not sure what more you want.
11 Jul 2018, 20:03 PM
#30
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515

Sounds like he wants all units across all factions to be identical in performance.

Sadly (for you), you won't find that in CoH2.
11 Jul 2018, 20:07 PM
#31
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 19:44 PMVipper

If you seriously think that Panther is in the same class with Sherman and should be used in comparison, there is little point continuing this.

If in you opinion Su-76 should counter the Panther frontally, there is little point continuing this.

Ostheer PzIV has 180 Armor that gives Su-76 100% chance to penetrate at range 60. I am not sure what more you want.


nah thats because youre trying to compare the su-76 and the StuG in a vacuum...

one must also compare what armor they face... of course i dont think su-76s should be a counter to panthers... but my point here is that the StuG counters all non doctrinal allied armor with 170 penetration in contrast to the higher penetration SU-76... which only counters light vehicles and the P4...

in other words there is nothing the StuG cant penetrate on the allied side non doctrinally... so it doesnt need higher penetration as it will kill anything short of a call in (or british) tank anyways

so yes my main argument still stands... the StuG has a place even with ost T4 around as the premier axis tank destroyer... the SU-76 simply becomes redundant by sov t4 as it now underperforms in both AT and AI roles... it should exceed in 1 role at the very least so it remains useful even with sov T4 around
11 Jul 2018, 20:11 PM
#32
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 20:03 PMNosliw
Sounds like he wants all units across all factions to be identical in performance.

Sadly (for you), you won't find that in CoH2.


of course not once have i suggested buffing the SU-76 to stug levels but you can strawman all you want all day...

what id like is the SU-76 being relevant after t4 and not some shitty unit one simply foregoes after teching up... or even avoiding the unit entirely (due to it being bad)
thats why i suggested anti infantry buffs anti medium buffs or reverting the barrage nerf... nothing drastic really
11 Jul 2018, 20:34 PM
#33
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13786 | Subs: 7


The Soviet don't lack for munitions seeing as they don't have a sink. Weapon upgrades? Nope. Pintle mgs? Nope. Fancy pants weapon racks? Nerp. Bunkers to lick down areas without population cost? Nohohope. Cheap mines and situation abilities are all they have to spend muni on unless you pick a doctrine with a sink.

Molotovs are more expensive, oorah is more expensive, penals have upgrade, you have to go for guards and/or ppsh doctrine as stock cons, while better, aren't going to carry you in late game.

Soviets do not have stock weapon upgrades other then penal ptrs, but nowadays there is plenty of muni sinks, given how every single ability cost muni now and there is plenty to use.

These costs stack up quickly if you keep utilizing them.
11 Jul 2018, 20:37 PM
#34
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1077

LOL if the StuG is fine, then the SU76 should be even more fine. I know I'm wasting my time typing on a thread started by yet another noob but I can't help it seeing the amount of incompetence. Both had an RoF nerf except the StuG somehow also deserved a major pop cap nerf too? If anything the Stug may be overnerfed as it doesn't deserve a pop cap nerf considering now that its the same cost of a versatile t34. Su76 users should be grateful they have not one but two useful abilities unlike the Stug which has its one and only TWP nerfed to the ground. It takes forever to fire and does little damage. It's a "vision" stun, wtf is a vision stun when the enemy tank still fires right after getting hit with a TWP. I've never seen an axis tank fire back immediately after the stuart hits it with a vision stun. TWP on the Stug is broken.

I doubt the balance team will listen to my suggestion of looking at the pop cap but at least can they fix the TWP? Revert everything back to the old TWP but decrease the gun crit to 5 secs or whatever length the crit is right now. Even the old TWP is occasionally unreliable but still more reliable than what it is now.
11 Jul 2018, 20:42 PM
#35
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1077

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 20:11 PMgbem


of course not once have i suggested buffing the SU-76 to stug levels but you can strawman all you want all day...

what id like is the SU-76 being relevant after t4 and not some shitty unit one simply foregoes after teching up... or even avoiding the unit entirely (due to it being bad)
thats why i suggested anti infantry buffs anti medium buffs or reverting the barrage nerf... nothing drastic really


THe SU76 IS and was ALWAYS relevant late game, even more than the Stug. It has 60 range and 200+ pen (even more pen with vet, which it vets up insanely fast.) The only caveat is you need a pair to get respectable dps. But that has never been a problem as they are dirt cheap. And a pair of them can fend off everything short of a KT.
11 Jul 2018, 21:19 PM
#36
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3253 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 20:34 PMKatitof

Molotovs are more expensive, oorah is more expensive, penals have upgrade, you have to go for guards and/or ppsh doctrine as stock cons, while better, aren't going to carry you in late game.

Soviets do not have stock weapon upgrades other then penal ptrs, but nowadays there is plenty of muni sinks, given how every single ability cost muni now and there is plenty to use.

These costs stack up quickly if you keep utilizing them.

Soviet munitions costs are majority opportunity cost in nature where most other factions have nice one offs that elevate their baseline performance making them Mandatory for lack of a better term, their munitions overhead is higher so to speak.
The price increases definitely add up, but you can (and will) be decking out brit/us squads with 120mu in weapon upgrades, that's 6 Oprah's per squad. Hardly comparable, throw in pintles or HVAP or medkits or tulips or or or or or and there is a massive disparity leaving the Soviet with both more availible munitions and a lower baseline of power
Also nobody said that making barrage a vet ability means it has to remain as is, it could be free again or cheaper if it was restricted by vet
11 Jul 2018, 21:39 PM
#37
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6417 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 20:07 PMgbem

nah thats because youre trying to compare the su-76 and the StuG in a vacuum...
...

Actually you are doing that not me.

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 20:07 PMgbem
...
but my point here is that the StuG counters all non doctrinal allied armor with 170 penetration in contrast to the higher penetration SU-76... which only counters light vehicles and the P4...


Since according to you SU-76 can counter anything up to and including the P4 the unit is fine.
11 Jul 2018, 23:10 PM
#38
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 15:47 PMgbem


but then retaining
1. awful longrange accuracy coupled with reduced long range DPM due to the nerf

2. a 35 muni cost on top of the worse vet 0 barrage...

and if XP value is the issue then its a simple matter of nerfing the XP requirements... the SU-76 is supposed to be a stopgap AT platform-capable HE platform as it was irl... SU-76s continued to be used till the end of ww2 and were the soviets main form of self propelled artillery like a priest or a wespe... but capable of going in like an assault gun... a job it kinda does badly now after the patch



its a good stopgap AT platform but is a pretty bad anti infantry platform now with the 35 point muni cost added to it... the problem is once you have teched to T4 the SU-76 becomes fully redundant... the katyusha/T-34 is better at killing infantry and the SU-85 is better at killing tanks... the other T3 units... the T-70 and the m5 HT still retain their uses as a recon tank and a reinforcement truck respectively... not to mention that recon tank wipes better than the T-34 does...


So what you're saying is that units that come later and are more expansive are make older units obsolete? Well that's kinda the point.
11 Jul 2018, 23:21 PM
#39
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3989

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 20:07 PMgbem


nah thats because youre trying to compare the su-76 and the StuG in a vacuum...

one must also compare what armor they face... of course i dont think su-76s should be a counter to panthers... but my point here is that the StuG counters all non doctrinal allied armor with 170 penetration in contrast to the higher penetration SU-76... which only counters light vehicles and the P4...

in other words there is nothing the StuG cant penetrate on the allied side non doctrinally... so it doesnt need higher penetration as it will kill anything short of a call in (or british) tank anyways

so yes my main argument still stands... the StuG has a place even with ost T4 around as the premier axis tank destroyer... the SU-76 simply becomes redundant by sov t4 as it now underperforms in both AT and AI roles... it should exceed in 1 role at the very least so it remains useful even with sov T4 around
comet and churchill cry in a corner
11 Jul 2018, 23:27 PM
#40
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3989

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 18:38 PMgbem


1. what good is 60 range with an inaccurate gun?

2. radar? u mean tracking? id guess it is good... but not enough to redeem the SU since focused sight (SU-85) is cheaper... which further proves my point of the SU-76 being obsolete by the time T4 comes out...


1. what's the point of accurate gun wiht only 50 range ?

2. u mean target weak point i guess it's good but it does not deal wiht infantry like the barrage of the su 76 or gets almost auto spot wiht traking while also giving FOW info


see anyone can cherry pick only the thing they dont like if the su 76 had perfect accuracy at long range and even more pen then it would be op u can't just patch up an unit weakness if not we would see anti mortar mg, teleporting mortar, 360 cone at gun with 50 armor
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