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russian armor

SU-76

12 Jul 2018, 09:51 AM
#61
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 09:38 AMgbem
and the puma may have less accuracy but is faster has a turret and can rapid smoke encircle targets... pretty good in its role as a finisher tank to kill those stragglers

puma? well..its its not that really god hunting unit like you want to tell us.

yesterday: it misses 4 (four) times in a row hunting a su76 on mid and near range!...WTF!

do you wanna talk about bad accu? and puma cant barrage, has not 60range...
12 Jul 2018, 09:52 AM
#62
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 09:45 AMVipper

It simply does not. It perform very good for price, tech cost and Pop.


the similarly priced puma counters light vehicles better and is a great finisher against damaged tanks... if a light TD is the role of an SU-76 then the puma does its job better....

it has worse range yes... but is faster has a turret has smoke and fires faster.... did i mention smoke?

and of course as anti infantry its fellow light tanks do a better job at that... paying 35 muni to counter infantry which can simply move out of the way (except a weapon team) is a high price to pay...

if the barrage were to be free then yes the worse AT capabilities would be offset by the free barrage... but as it stands 35 muni for a barrage just sucks
12 Jul 2018, 09:58 AM
#63
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 09:52 AMgbem


the similarly priced puma counters light vehicles better and is a great finisher against damaged tanks... if a light TD is the role of an SU-76 then the puma does its job better....

it has worse range yes... but is faster has a turret has smoke and fires faster.... did i mention smoke?

and of course as anti infantry its fellow light tanks do a better job at that... paying 35 muni to counter infantry which can simply move out of the way (except a weapon team) is a high price to pay...

if the barrage were to be free then yes the worse AT capabilities would be offset by the free barrage... but as it stands 35 muni for a barrage just sucks


really? do u know how often i wipes units with this barrage? to often and it is really strong vs infantery blobbs, teamweapons and houses....for this huge range ...is 35muni relativ cheap. a grenade cost nearly the same..but doesnt have such range and wiping potencial...you can sit back and arty with a AT GUN! the enemy lines.
12 Jul 2018, 10:05 AM
#64
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6377 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 09:52 AMgbem


the similarly priced puma counters light vehicles better and is a great finisher against damaged tanks... if a light TD is the role of an SU-76 then the puma does its job better....
...

Once more check stat before posting:
Su-76
cost 280/75
Penetration 180/190/200
Range 60

Puma
320/70
Penetration
Penetration 80/120/160
Range 50


Su-76 has more than double penetration far and more penetration far than puma has close, it can not barrage and has higher XP value.

SU-76 is simply a cost efficient unit.
12 Jul 2018, 10:24 AM
#65
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341


puma? well..its its not that really god hunting unit like you want to tell us.

yesterday: it misses 4 (four) times in a row hunting a su76 on mid and near range!...WTF!

do you wanna talk about bad accu? and puma cost 50% more fuel, cant barrage, has not 60range...



and my SU-76 missed around 5 times in a row at a panzer 4 that was trying to run away at mid range... the puma is supposed to engage the SU-76 after it has been fausted.... use that mobility

and the puma does not cost 50% more fuel at least for the OKW puma its even cheaper than the SU-76... the ostheer puma is more expensive due to it being a call in...

also i call bullshit on ur entire argument... cheatmod II tests show that

1. SU76 vs puma... in a straight up fight at max range no fog of war...

engagement 1 puma advances... out of 4 engagements... 1 draw... 1 puma wins... 2 SU-76 wins

engagement 2 SU-76 advances... out of 4 engagements... 3 puma wins... 1 SU-76 win...

i call your argument bullshit
12 Jul 2018, 10:43 AM
#66
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 10:05 AMVipper

Once more check stat before posting:
Su-76
cost 280/75
Penetration 180/190/200
Range 60

Puma
320/70
Penetration
Penetration 80/120/160
Range 50


Su-76 has more than double penetration far and more penetration far than puma has close, it can not barrage and has higher XP value.

SU-76 is simply a cost efficient unit.


tested on cheatmod II
average kill time at range 50
puma vs T-70 and SU-76 vs T-70

4 tests done on semi flat terrain... both tanks firing at the same target location from the same firing point... all debris cleared...

21.996...........34.867
21.828...........13.604
17.051...........1:17.723 (yes 1 minute)
17.708...........56.155

the puma is clearly superior at killing light vehicles to the SU-76 when firing at range 50
12 Jul 2018, 10:47 AM
#67
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6377 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 10:43 AMgbem


tested on cheatmod II
average kill time at range 50
puma vs T-70 and SU-76 vs T-70

21.996...........34.867
21.828...........13.604
17.051...........1:17.723 (yes 1 minute)
17.708...........56.155

the puma is clearly superior at killing light vehicles to the SU-76 when firing at range 50

If only Su-76 had to fight a T-70.

Now do the same test 100 times and you will see that this RNG. Su-76 has simply better accuracy.

Su-76 is simply a cost efficient unit.
12 Jul 2018, 10:49 AM
#68
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 10:47 AMVipper

If only Su-76 had to fight a T-70.

Now do the same test 100 times and you will see that this RNG. Su-76 has simply better accuracy.

Su-76 is simply a cost efficient unit.


do u have the accuracy stats of both units?
12 Jul 2018, 10:51 AM
#69
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6377 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 10:49 AMgbem


do u have the accuracy stats of both units?

Puma
Accuracy near 0.05
Accuracy mid 0.0375
Accuracy far 0.025
Range near 10
Range mid 30
Range far 50
Range 0 - 50

Su-76
Accuracy near 0.05
Accuracy mid 0.035
Accuracy far 0.025
Range near 0
Range mid 30
Range far 60
Range 0 - 60
12 Jul 2018, 10:52 AM
#70
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

and what about the rate of fire and damage?... btw whats ur source coh2.hu has been down since forever already...
12 Jul 2018, 10:59 AM
#71
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6377 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 10:52 AMgbem
and what about the rate of fire and damage?... btw whats ur source coh2.hu has been down since forever already...

get cruzz's or firespr's files, they are at their signature.
12 Jul 2018, 11:07 AM
#72
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 10:59 AMVipper

get cruzz's or firespr's files, they are at their signature.


is there a search function for the forums?... also whats the pumas stats overall contrasted to the SU-76... so far tests have shown that the puma is at an advantage... it seems to fire slightly faster aswell
12 Jul 2018, 11:10 AM
#73
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6377 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 11:07 AMgbem


is there a search function for the forums?... also whats the pumas stats overall contrasted to the SU-76... so far tests have shown that the puma is at an advantage... it seems to fire slightly faster aswell

find any post by cruzz or firespark ther ewill be link to the files in their signature.
12 Jul 2018, 11:11 AM
#74
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 10:43 AMgbem


tested on cheatmod II
average kill time at range 50
puma vs T-70 and SU-76 vs T-70

4 tests done on semi flat terrain... both tanks firing at the same target location from the same firing point... all debris cleared...

21.996...........34.867
21.828...........13.604
17.051...........1:17.723 (yes 1 minute)
17.708...........56.155

the puma is clearly superior at killing light vehicles to the SU-76 when firing at range 50


and now test this at range 60.
and now test the su and the puma vs infantery blobbs and teamweapons.

and come back with your enlightings.
12 Jul 2018, 11:15 AM
#75
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341



and now test this at range 60.
and now test the su and the puma vs infantery blobbs and teamweapons.

and come back with your enlightings.


1. at range 60 the puma cant fire back... though the SU-76 is not going to hit jack shit either.. the puma has a turret and is faster though and can disable the SU-76 at vet 1 and has smoke... and is cheaper by 5 fuel.. did i mention smoke?

2. without a 35 muni ability? the puma... it has a machinegun and actually kills models on occasion with its 50mm... with its abilities yes the SU-76 is better... but then the puma has abilities of its own that make it lethal to tanks...
12 Jul 2018, 13:08 PM
#76
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 11:15 AMgbem


1. at range 60 the puma cant fire back... though the SU-76 is not going to hit jack shit either.. the puma has a turret and is faster though and can disable the SU-76 at vet 1 and has smoke... and is cheaper by 5 fuel.. did i mention smoke?

2. without a 35 muni ability? the puma... it has a machinegun and actually kills models on occasion with its 50mm... with its abilities yes the SU-76 is better... but then the puma has abilities of its own that make it lethal to tanks...


1. See? the su will win any engagements at this range and can even outrange the expansiver stug3.
so it can fire from save place without needing high healt pool or armor.
and its pene vaulue is high enough to deal with medium armor well. even on max range.

2. and the abilty from puma is costfree?
12 Jul 2018, 13:19 PM
#77
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341



1. See? the su will win any engagements at this range and can even outrange the expansiver stug3.
so it can fire from save place without needing high healt pool or armor.
and its pene vaulue is high enough to deal with medium armor well. even on max range.

2. and the abilty from puma is costfree?


1. and all the stug/puma player has to do is move forward and the SU-76 is going to lose... this is especially true for the puma since its FASTER and has a turret... regardless the puma is still superior in the AT role as the experiment suggests... you cannot refute this now


2. 35 muni to disloge an MG or a mortar with a really bad AT platform... or 30 muni for smoke which can save the puma... or disable an enemy tank...

tldr axis puma > SU-76 as light AT...
12 Jul 2018, 13:24 PM
#78
avatar of karskimies

Posts: 67



+1

Of the few things I agree with Zero with, this is one of them.


Yeah, tracking down OKW stealth AT-gun so stupid.....
12 Jul 2018, 13:27 PM
#79
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 262

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 11:15 AMgbem


1. at range 60 the puma cant fire back... though the SU-76 is not going to hit jack shit either.. the puma has a turret and is faster though and can disable the SU-76 at vet 1 and has smoke... and is cheaper by 5 fuel.. did i mention smoke?

2. without a 35 muni ability? the puma... it has a machinegun and actually kills models on occasion with its 50mm... with its abilities yes the SU-76 is better... but then the puma has abilities of its own that make it lethal to tanks...

As a Soviet main I feel the Su76 is alright in terms of cost efficiency. Regarding its accuracy, iirc the panzer 4 has a target size of 40 multiplied by the long range accuracy of the su76 of 0.025 and you have a 100% hit rate assuming those numbers are correct. In addition, the su76 scales far better than the puma due to its higher penetration at all ranges and ability to tank 3 at shots instead of 2. Don't get me wrong I consider both vehicles very cost effective . you just can't dismiss the su76 because it's penetration is lower than the main line tank destroyers. Both the puma and su76 fill the niche they are in just fine as stop tap light anti tank with the puma being a stronger counter to light vehicles and the su76 scaling better due to its effectiveness against medium tanks and longer range. The barrage is just extra And to be honest, I wouldn't be that bothered if they removed it entirely even without compensating buffs
12 Jul 2018, 13:27 PM
#80
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1737

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 09:42 AMgbem


the SU-76s biggest flaw imho is not the lack of the turret or the paper armor but rather the inaccuracy... its speed and range compensate for the lack of turret and the paper thing armor...

but the lack of accuracy renders its gun nearly useless at long range... and vulnerable at close range... and a properly supported SU-76 is gonna have trouble hitting the panzer 4 even with an AT nade... at which point it becomes redundant... too inaccurate to hit anything... too expensive a barrage ability... tries to be a jack of all trades... but fails badly...


I get your point, I did not know that the accuracy became worse after the patch (haven't played Sovs for a while now), but imo the pen and accuracy was extremely good before as well.

The thing is that it has to be bad in some way. It perfectly counters Light Vehicles like 222s. 251s, Flak HTs and Luchses by killing them or at least forcing them to move out of an area. The barrage then is just a nice bonus. It being free was a problem in the first place.

If you want to get a sniper tank hunter, you get the SU85 (which also has its flaws, but still).

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2018, 13:27 PMSerrith

The barrage is just extra And to be honest, I wouldn't be that bothered if they removed it entirely even without compensating buffs


I think all the "niche tanks" need this kind of "cheese" ability besides their main gun damage in order to be able to add a surprise element. StuG will make you inmaneuverable for a while. Puma does as well (?). AEC also has its thread shot. The Valentine can watch your enemy while sucking ass.
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