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russian armor

Lend-Lease Numbers

9 Jul 2018, 10:24 AM
#1
avatar of Planet Smasher
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For a mod I am currently working on, I researched which US weapons and vehicles that are available in COH2 were sent to the British Empire and USSR under the Lend-Lease Agreement and in what quantities. Most of the information I have gathered comes from these documents.

The first column lists the designation of the model present in COH2, while the second line lists other models that have (or might have) been sent as well. Please note that not everything in this list was actually used in combat: Some equipment was modified (Kangaroo Carriers, anyone?), some was sent to other countries (such as British Dominions) and some was simply stored.

Anyway, I thought this might help with British commander designs for the upcoming contest! Further information and corrections are, of course, always appreciated.

Small Arms











Model in COH2Other ModelsBritish EmpireUSSR
M1911A1 PistolM19113959212997
M1A1 "Thompson" Submachine GunM1928A1, M1, TMC, Reising*651086137729**
M3 "Grease Gun" Submachine Gun00
M1 CarbineM1A1, M2253627
M1 "Garand" Rifle380011
M1918A2 Browning Automatic Rifle2040
M1919A6 Light Machine GunM1919A4176315403
M2HB Heavy Machine Gun52331
M2 Flamethrower00
M9 "Bazooka" Rocket LauncherM1, M1A121273000


Support Weapons




Model in COH2Other ModelsBritish EmpireUSSR
M1 Anti-Tank Gun***4242400
M1 Pack Howitzer8020
M1 Mortar5552540


Grenades and Mines






Model in COH2Other ModelsBritish EmpireUSSR
Mk 2 "Pineapple" Fragmentation Grenade10758000
M9A1 Anti-Tank Rifle GrenadeM916291100
M23 Smoke Rifle Grenade00
M6 Anti-Tank Mine00
M7 Anti-Tank Mine00


Light Vehicles











Model in COH2Other ModelsBritish EmpireUSSR
Dodge WC-51 TruckWC-521088424902
Dodge WC-54 Ambulance6440
M20 Utility Car00
M8 "Greyhound" Light Armored Car4960
M3A1 Scout Car69973340
M3 Halftrack22
M21 Mortar Motor Carriage00
M15A1 Combined Gun Motor CarriageM150100
M5A1 HalftrackM5, M95238420
M17 Multiple Gun Motor Carriage ("M5 Quad")01000


Tanks and Self-Propelled Guns










Model in COH2Other ModelsBritish EmpireUSSR
M5A1 "Stuart" Light TankM513915
M8A1 Howitzer Motor Carriage00
M7B1 "Priest" Howitzer Motor CarriageM78320
M4 "Sherman" Medium Tank, 75mm Gun152562007
M4 "Sherman" Medium Tank, 76mm Gun13352095
M4 "Sherman" Medium Tank, 105mm Howitzer5930
M10 Gun Motor Carriage*****M10A1164852
M36B2 Gun Motor Carriage*****00
M26 "Pershing" Heavy TankT2661


Aircraft



Model in COH2Other ModelsBritish EmpireUSSR
P-47 Thunderbolt825203
C-47 Douglas2035708


* The document only lists "Cal .45 Submachine Guns" without further distinction. From what I have gathered, the numbers include a large number of Thompson SMGs and a smaller number of Reising SMGs. The Grease Gun was not sent under Lend-Lease.

** The USSR received M1928A1 Thompson SMGs together with M3 Stuart Light Tanks. However, the SMGs were not widely used because the Red Army feared ammunition shortages for the .45 ACP round, among other reasons.

*** The M1 AT Gun is the US designation for the British 6-pounder.

**** The M23 and M23A1 Smoke Rifle Grenades actually only produce green, red, violet and yellow smoke and were used for signaling.

***** I'm not entirely sure if the Wolverine in COH2 is an M10 or an M10A1. If it is an M10, then the Jackson is an M36B2. If it is an M10A1, then the Jackson is an M36. Both use the same chassis.

Here is some information about British shipments to the USSR.
10 Jul 2018, 10:06 AM
#2
avatar of Osinyagov
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M2 Flamethrower - None


Why then this thing exist in UKF Mobile Assault Regiment? :huh:
10 Jul 2018, 10:26 AM
#3
avatar of Planet Smasher
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Why then this thing exist in UKF Mobile Assault Regiment? :huh:

Because Relic didn't have the time or resources to make the Lifebuoy Flamethrower -_-
8 Sep 2018, 18:51 PM
#4
avatar of Vipper

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great work would it possible a similar one with UKF items given to Soviets and USF (or produce under license).
8 Sep 2018, 19:02 PM
#5
avatar of LoopDloop

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Wait did the US actually send Britain 651,081 thompsons?
8 Sep 2018, 19:29 PM
#6
avatar of adamírcz

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Wait did the US actually send Britain 651,081 thompsons?

Brits didnt even have an SMG at the start of the war. They were makin Stens in a hurry alongside forgotten weapons such as Lancaster or Sterling
Am I right?
8 Sep 2018, 20:00 PM
#7
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2828


Brits didnt even have an SMG at the start of the war. They were makin Stens in a hurry alongside forgotten weapons such as Lancaster or Sterling
Am I right?

I don’t have a lot of knowledge on the topic but I seem to recall that the sten was created as a cheap, easy to manufacture smg after the BEF had to retreat from France and left a ton of their weapons and equipment behind. But that’s a ludicrous amount of Thompsons in context of how many other small arms they were sent by the US, especially considering that the Thompson is fairly expensive and high quality as far as smgs go (when compared to like the grease gun, sten, or mp40).

Wasn’t the sterling made in like the 50s or 60s? Could be thinking of another smg or something though.
8 Sep 2018, 22:39 PM
#8
avatar of Kasarov
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Wait did the US actually send Britain 651,081 thompsons?


Yep! The weapon-of-choice for British Commandos was actually the Thompson, and it even appears on their insignia! The Sten was only standard issue towards the end of the war (which is when CoH2 takes place anyway), but given a choice, I bet that Commandos would still opt for the Tommy gun if available.



That being said, it would be cool to see a Tommy gun upgrade on Commandos!
9 Sep 2018, 01:25 AM
#9
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2828



Yep! The weapon-of-choice for British Commandos was actually the Thompson, and it even appears on their insignia! The Sten was only standard issue towards the end of the war (which is when CoH2 takes place anyway), but given a choice, I bet that Commandos would still opt for the Tommy gun if available.



That being said, it would be cool to see a Tommy gun upgrade on Commandos!

Yeah I do recall that. Thompsons on commandos might be a little OP if it was more than like 2 though XD

It just still seems like a staggering number of submachine guns seeing as most infantry used rifles anyway.
9 Sep 2018, 09:26 AM
#10
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In the source I have linked, the Thompson is not explicitly listed. It says "Submachine, Cal. .45, All Types" with 880195 sent in total. Of these, 651086 were sent to the British Empire (so that might include Canada, Australia, NZ and others) and 137729 to the USSR. However, the only other SMG the US produced in large numbers was the M3 (Grease Gun), but as far as I know, it wasn't used by the British or the Soviets - leaving only the Thompson.
13 Sep 2018, 13:41 PM
#11
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Sep 2018, 18:51 PMVipper
great work would it possible a similar one with UKF items given to Soviets and USF (or produce under license).

I just added numbers for US equipment sent to the USSR. Here is a little information about British equipment sent to the USSR, but I can't find exact numbers at the moment. It is worth noting, though, that British tanks were mostly sent during the earlier years of the war - the late-war Valentine and Churchill models present in COH2 were probably not sent there. The article also mentions Reverse Lend-Lease (shipments to the US), but I haven't been able to find much more information yet. I do know that large quantities of Lee-Enfield rifles, Bren LMGs and Boys AT rifles were manufactured in the US, but probably exclusively for British and Canadian use.
13 Sep 2018, 13:58 PM
#12
avatar of Osinyagov
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USSR get 1 M26 in april 1945 for testing. Source: https://warspot.ru/9851-tank-tyazhyolyy-ponevole (include screns of soviet documents about M26 and his photo in Kubinka)
13 Sep 2018, 14:00 PM
#13
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USSR get 1 M26 in april 1945 for testing. Source: https://warspot.ru/9851-tank-tyazhyolyy-ponevole (include screns of soviet documents about M26 and his photo in Kubinka)

Oh, I didn't know that! The article says it's a T26E3, right? I'll add it to the list.
13 Sep 2018, 14:09 PM
#14
avatar of Osinyagov
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Oh, I didn't know that! The article says it's a T26E3, right? I'll add it to the list.

Long story short - USA choose T26E3 as serial M26, but soviets though, that serial was T26E1, and designate it as prototype. USA send fully production model with registration number 30119961. IOW sended to the USSR T26E3 fully equal to regular M26 for USF.
13 Sep 2018, 20:05 PM
#15
avatar of Osinyagov
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I want to inform, that there is no M14 MGMC in the game. But there is M16 MGMC and M17 MGMC

M16 was sended to UK in total number of 2.
M17 was sended to USSR in total number of 1000.

Source: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/LL-Ship/LL-Ship-3A.html
Looks like here is correct information lend-lease for USSR. It match with information, which i saw in articles of russian historian Yuri Pasholok. Usually, he using information from Central Archives of the Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation.
14 Sep 2018, 07:55 AM
#16
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I want to inform, that there is no M14 MGMC in the game. But there is M16 MGMC and M17 MGMC

M16 was sended to UK in total number of 2.
M17 was sended to USSR in total number of 1000.

Source: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/LL-Ship/LL-Ship-3A.html
Looks like here is correct information lend-lease for USSR. It match with information, which i saw in articles of russian historian Yuri Pasholok. Usually, he using information from Central Archives of the Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation.

Thanks, I fixed it. It was a typo and because of that I looked up the wrong numbers :D
There's only the M17 in COH2 though, right?
14 Sep 2018, 08:01 AM
#17
avatar of Kasarov
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Interesting. M3 Halftracks sent to UK/USSR: 2 each?
More like Super Special Weapons Regiment.

Also I should point out that apparently some of the Soviet skins cover the M3 halftrack but because it's so ahistorical I'd vote against it anyway
14 Sep 2018, 08:27 AM
#18
avatar of Osinyagov
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Thanks, I fixed it. It was a typo and because of that I looked up the wrong numbers :D
There's only the M17 in COH2 though, right?

M16 based on M3 Halftrack. M17 based on M5 Halftrack.
And M16, and M17, presented in the game, but have fully same 3D-Model, because somebody created M3 Halftrack model without possibilty to upgrade it with quad, because of that was used model from soviet M5 Halftrack.
You can find M16 in calliope doctrine as upgraded M5
14 Sep 2018, 08:45 AM
#19
avatar of Osinyagov
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2018, 08:01 AMKasarov
Interesting. M3 Halftracks sent to UK/USSR: 2 each?
More like Super Special Weapons Regiment.

Also I should point out that apparently some of the Soviet skins cover the M3 halftrack but because it's so ahistorical I'd vote against it anyway


M3 and M5 looks close to each other. Source: http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/halftrackm5.html

Actually, both models in the game are M3 Halftrack, soviet one is littlechanged M3 model from vCoH.
Iirc new model from WFA should be used for guard shocks from lendlease doctrine, but was changed to M5 for some reason. i tried to push the idea to replace all M3/M5 with model from WFA and added quad Upgrade to it, but Relic decided to take shitty soviet model and move it to USF.
14 Sep 2018, 12:49 PM
#20
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M16 based on M3 Halftrack. M17 based on M5 Halftrack.
And M16, and M17, presented in the game, but have fully same 3D-Model, because somebody created M3 Halftrack model without possibilty to upgrade it with quad, because of that was used model from soviet M5 Halftrack.
You can find M16 in calliope doctrine as upgraded M5

The units in the actual game are often named incorrectly - therefore this thread deals only with the available models in the game files. Since the model with the quad-mounted .50 is based on the M5, I would say it's an M17 and simply named incorrectly in the Tactical Support Company, even though the M17 wasn't used by US forces, as far as I know.
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