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An open letter to the CoHmmunity about rebroadcasting

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A_E
4 Apr 2018, 07:32 AM
#41
avatar of A_E
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This thread is now unlocked, please discuss civilly.

_____________________________

There have been some good responses aimed at this thread, in a rather unbalanced poll thread that Rosbone created.

From these three users:

I as a "marketing person" don't see why streaming and restreaming should be forbidden.

I respect all the streamers around here and sometimes I also like to rewatch games (not from this particular tournament), especially from Dane and A_E, because I enjoy them the most.

BUT

People complaining about copyright law and stuff sound a tad ridiculous to be honest. This is not the League of Legend LCS also not an MMA Tournament, as someone mentioned. It is a CoH2 game, please stay with your efforts.

While the LCS and MMA attract between 1 and 20 million people depending on the game and tournament, the "average" game of CoH2 has usually around 50 viewers for a "usual" stream and around 500 for this kind of tournament.

So it is not like these kinds of tournaments are here to make money. With the uploads on Youtube that get usually 2.000 views at best, you make less than two dollars. The LCS and the MMA are such events so there are strict laws who may stream and who may not.

But my personal opinion? Let the guys stream. It brings attention to these kinds of events. The money comes from sponsors like Dr. Wachs who would also benefit from a bigger viewership.

Honestly some things feel like the stuff we were protesting against 5 years ago, NDA and such. Most viewers will either way watch the "main channel" of a tournament, in this case A_E's. Other streamers can generate more viewers out of post-match analysis and stuff that's okay too.

But right now, I personally have no idea what this tournament is about and I am on this board everyday. I hope I wasn't too harsh about you guys, but sometimes I feel like some people here tend to sit on some kind of a high horse.


Streaming is an important part of promoting and maintaining interest in CoH2 (and even CoH1) so many years after release. For those that do stream regularly with relatively high numbers of viewers, viewer count is important, especially so for those who are running organized events. It is also important to those who depend on viewer, subscriber, and follower counts to earn income for themselves.

If I chose to stream coh2, I most definitely wouldn't stream during an official event; I'd most likely be watching said event. If I was participating in an event, I probably wouldn't be streaming my own game either, though players are able to do that if they wish. Tournament organizers are also able to request participants that they do not stream their own games.

It has already been established that streaming another streamer's content is against Twitch's terms of service, barring the observer mode.

It would be improper etiquette, though not violating Twitch's terms of service, to stream live replays of tournament games if you have not asked the tournament organizers for explicit permission to do so. This is usually done well in advance (I believe Romeo and Dane have already been asked and announced that they will be streaming GCS2 qualifiers over the summer and it was the same case with GCS), though if there are last minute technical or scheduling conflicts I'm sure things can be organized on an ad-hoc basis.

If you're not involved with a tournament that's happening and you're playing coh2 in automatch rankings or dicking around in private games, I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to stream your own gameplay. Although, personally, I wouldn't do that (like I said I'd be watching the live stream/participating), nothing is stopping you from streaming your own gameplay.

Another thing that hasn't been tackled yet, with regards to YouTube videos, if I were to cast a tournament game and upload it directly to YouTube, I would probably ask the tournament organizers first. Out of etiquette and respect, of course, not because of Relic or .org rules.

I believe that this is a learning experience for the community and should be used as an opportunity to learn what is and is not acceptable and establish the public consensus or private resolutions as precedent for handling potential incidents in the future. We should grow out of this incident stronger and more united in our love of this game and respect for each other's hard work in gaming skill, casting skill, and the styles and conduct that streamers engage in when using their twitch accounts.

If I've said anything wrong, if someone disagrees with me, or I have omitted something, please say so. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to do here besides summarize what I've read from others, read on twitch, seen on twitch, was witness to on Sunday, and what I believe is proper etiquette. Perhaps this can form the basis of a Public Service Announcement post here on .org in the coming weeks? Perhaps that may prove to be divisive.


IMO people are creating a gray area where there should definitely not be one.

Tournament creators go through a lot of time and effort in producing quality and fun tournaments for a community, they should reap the benefits of their hard work without the viewership being split. No other serious E-Sport Community allows streaming of events (with small possible exceptions) and COH2 should not either.

Edit: Additionally straight up dubbing over other streamers is a copyright infringement that is definitely against twitch TOS.

To make a profit off of other people's hard earned work is wrong and should be addressed now. In my opinion, it's a given rule that you do not stream a live tournament without permission of the tournament directors.


My thoughts on this are as follows:

In this particular case it seems the overwhelming majority of people believe both counts of what Hans did were wrong in differing amounts:

1) re-streaming is definitely wrong and Hans admitted as much himself.

2) Brodcasting tourney games without permission is also wrong within the context of our community, and from what I've seen nearly everyone agrees with that.

So let's use this as a precedent that we stick to those rules etc, and also tourney organiser lay out any opportunities clearly so people can get involved.

GCS2 as an example: I will say right now that for GCS2 we will probably have a Saturday (day 1 of 2) for each qualifying tournament that is a casting free for all, but the rule that people try to cast different games, and we have a schedule that allows this. Day 2 will be structured with 2 different streams only. Then the GCS2 live final tournament will have one stream and one stream only.

This way I think it will strike a nice balance between giving people content to cast, whilst leaving the most hype portion to the event organisation themselves.
A_E
4 Apr 2018, 08:29 AM
#43
avatar of A_E
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Posts: 2111 | Subs: 4

You do not own CoH2 or the rights for all the viewers. Which actually cant be proven you would have gotten more without someones stream. --- because TO's wanted all the CoH2 views.


I don't think anyone is even slightly suggesting that: you're trying to make out that TO's want all the CoH2 views, no they want all the views relating to their own tournament or authorised streams. Two very different things yet you seem to paint it as though they're saying all CoH2 views...

I think you need to write your post again because you seem to have misunderstood everything.
4 Apr 2018, 08:39 AM
#45
avatar of Sturmpanther
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Posts: 4806 | Subs: 14



Yet again your pulling it out of context the context is this:
"Hans HAS BEEN asked NOT to stream any CoH2 during past events because TO's wanted all the CoH2 views. "

Why would someone every ask someone to not strema that specific game at all in any way of form or shape if not wanting of all views for said game?

Saying i have to rewrite everything is massively rude aswell as this is my opinion and you are literally asking me now to change it.


I think you missunderstand here something.
Hans can stream coh2 while a cup is. It is his right. But then he should only stream his 1vs1 or 2vs2 random games. Or on Saturday his Subsaturday.
Its about casting the cup for himself.
Ofc it would be even better if he stopps and host the event. But if not, well its ok too.

And that count ofc for all streamers. I streamed as well coh2, while ae casted the 1 game from d0ggy vs theo. BUT i played 1vs1 for myself.
Currahe came in my channel and posted the streamlink in the chat from Ae.
4 Apr 2018, 09:11 AM
#48
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589

I'm sorry but this is all bull shit from this metacil guy.

There is no grey area. It is a plain and outright breaking of twitch TOS and international copyright law (intellectual property rights).

If I were the streamer who relies on twitch to pay my bills, I wouldn't be giving it the "big un" on a forum after literally stealing someone else's work, when said people could get me shut down. USE YOUR F*****G HUMILITY.

This is no different than a burglar going into someone's house and profiting off the hard work and toil of the home owner.

4 Apr 2018, 09:12 AM
#49
avatar of Basilone

Posts: 1934 | Subs: 2

Hans you're dead wrong. Should the stream be rebroadcast? Absolutely no. You shouldn't have done it even if you loaded the replay up on your own machine. They organized the tourney, its their games. Legally you're most likely off the hook because I doubt they trademarked the event or whatever they needed to do in order to truly own the content in the eyes of a court. That said, its just common sense that whoever goes through the bulk of the trouble to make it happen should reap the rewards. So even if they have no legal recourse here, which is probably the case, what you did is still the equivalent of stealing an invention from a friend because he didn't get the patent yet. That you stream all day for a job doesn't matter whatsoever, nor does the fact that you think you did them a favor. They asked you to stop, so don't do it. If you youtubed a cast the next day they probably wouldn't care at all, but its just common sense not to steal viewers from an event ran by other people, especially when its run by people you are supposedly friends with. Are you completely unfamiliar with how broadcast rights work in the sports world? This shouldn't need to be explained.

4 Apr 2018, 09:16 AM
#51
avatar of Stormless
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Posts: 752 | Subs: 5


1. "This was the excuse that was given on Sunday for casting the event unauthorised:"
This you dont do that is a direct pointing towards someone and condemning that person. The clip is also out of context and adds nothing to the letter except gain hate towards the player and making the letter look like a personal attack.


I will tell you very openly that the only reason we have written this post is that we asked Hans whilst he was casting to stop casting the event and do something else. He read this and then decided to continue and make the public speech on his channel that I linked.

This is NOT supposed to be an attack on Hans, but it absolutely is a result of Hans' actions. Our community has done very well working together as players and casters in the past. There has been in a way an unspoken mutual agreement between us all regarding events and streamers and I think we now should solidify that agreement because it's been broken.

Most of the top streamers are playing in the event or want to watch and support the community. Perhaps they will stream another game for their audience. If they really want to stream CoH during an event there is NO problem with this, but don't stream the event itself.

The issue is that you do not go on to Twitch, see that a friend of yours is casting a game, open their stream and re-broadcast it (Not even bothering to do it via CoH game which is a direct Twitch violation) then decide to publicly tell everyone that you're doing it because 'Their content isn't as good as yours'.

The only reason that Hans decided to make a speech about this publicly on his stream is because we had messaged him privately asking him to stop streaming the 2v2 tournament during the event.

The reason I have written this open letter is because we as TO's feel absolutely disrespected by this kind of behaviour. And everyone here who wants to support growth of CoH2 and tournaments should understand that. This kind of behaviour actually was the cause of the loss of One4One Events back in 2016 too.
4 Apr 2018, 09:19 AM
#53
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589



I never said there is a grey are cus there isn't. Nice try twisting words but instead you could be polite.


You aren't explicitly saying so, but you sure as hell are implying it. Perhaps you'd do the same for the smack heads that burgle your grandma's home to get their fix?

"they really needed it man, it's not their fault".
4 Apr 2018, 09:22 AM
#54
avatar of Stormless
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Posts: 752 | Subs: 5

my post TDLR summary:

1st clip and wording should be removed as it comes more as slander.
2nd clip either replace with your own clip explain it better what it is and why it can't. Atm its done without permission from hans and used in a way thats judging him. also threating with TOS posting a clip without permission then stating these could be reported and banned is not allowed by That same TOS. and therefor should be changed without clip or better clip.


I would just like to say that all these clips are sourced directly from the content creators channel and are publicly available for use to be linked and viewed.

I will also agree with Tatalala. Hans is a fully partnered Twitch streamer and should not be openly violating Twitch rules if it's his primary source of income. If streaming is your full time job you should definitely know key rules like this
4 Apr 2018, 09:27 AM
#55
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3899

If hans want's it he can do it on YouTube with permission, rebroadcasting on Twitch is just stealing content
4 Apr 2018, 09:29 AM
#57
avatar of Stormless
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Posts: 752 | Subs: 5

But you violate the rule by slandeirng someone openly? thats against TOS + making thw twitch TOS use to threat peopel is not allowed by the same TOS.


I made very careful consideration not to mention Hans by name or slander him at all in my post. The post was not about Hans but about behaviour from streamers during tournaments. Hans clips were used as an example situationally and I did not threaten him directly.

If I was unreasonable and an angry person... I probably would have just reported the video and had his channel taken down.
4 Apr 2018, 09:30 AM
#58
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 4806 | Subs: 14


I know you mean good but the community is mostly not. as seen by post of some others instantly calling hate on Hans. This is something that should not be the point. and i'm trying to point out how to bring out what you want more.


I think nobody reported Hans to twitch. So his stream and his Job to get money is still there.
So it is not a witch hunt.

It is more about to make a precedent case. So that this will not happend again in the future!
4 Apr 2018, 09:31 AM
#59
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589

But you violate the rule by slandeirng someone openly?


slander
ˈslɑːndə/
nounLaw
noun: slander

1.
the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.
"he is suing the TV company for slander"
a false and malicious spoken statement.
plural noun: slanders
"I've had just about all I can stomach of your slanders"
synonyms: defamation, defamation of character, character assassination, misrepresentation of character, calumny, libel; More
scandalmongering, malicious gossip, muckraking, smear campaigning, disparagement, denigration, derogation, aspersions, vilification, traducement, obloquy, backbiting, scurrility;
lie, slur, smear, untruth, false accusation, false report, insult, slight;
informalmud-slinging;
informalbad-mouthing;
archaiccontumely
"he'd sue me for slander if I made the accusation publicly"
antonyms: acclamation, praise

verb
verb: slander; 3rd person present: slanders; past tense: slandered; past participle: slandered; gerund or present participle: slandering

1.
make false and damaging statements about (someone).
"they were accused of slandering the head of state"
synonyms: defame, defame someone's character, blacken someone's name, give someone a bad name, tell lies about, speak ill/evil of, drag through the mud/mire, throw/sling/fling mud at, sully someone's reputation, libel, smear, run a smear campaign against, cast aspersions on, spread scandal about, besmirch, tarnish, taint, misrepresent; More







4 Apr 2018, 10:18 AM
#60
avatar of momo4sho
Senior Caster Badge
Donator 22

Posts: 463 | Subs: 1

Easiest solution going forward. Require hosts of tournament game to setup an obs password so only authorized casters can jump in the game and if any streamer rebroadcasts someones direct channel without permission just direct everyone to mass report their channel for violating TOS.

/lock thread
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