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russian armor

The tech cost for LMG, rifle-grenades and bundle grenades.

18 Mar 2018, 09:57 AM
#21
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Mar 2018, 14:24 PMEsxile


Well that's not Katikof who's making a thread of anything because you say something he didn't like.

Dear Esxile

If in your opinion Ostheer tech progress gives them an advantage over other faction, pls elaborate and share your opinion.

If on the other hand you have an issue with something I do, pls contact via since what I do or do not do is not the topic of this thread.

18 Mar 2018, 11:52 AM
#22
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3596 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Mar 2018, 09:57 AMVipper

Dear Esxile

If in your opinion Ostheer tech progress gives them an advantage over other faction, pls elaborate and share your opinion.

If on the other hand you have an issue with something I do, pls contact via since what I do or do not do is not the topic of this thread.



Dear Vipper, why are you so wrong?

Ostheer doesn't pay for their upgrade, this is balanced, and nobody complains about it, that's all.
18 Mar 2018, 13:35 PM
#23
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Mar 2018, 11:52 AMEsxile


Dear Vipper, why are you so wrong?

Ostheer doesn't pay for their upgrade, this is balanced, and nobody complains about it, that's all.
LOL
19 Mar 2018, 08:37 AM
#24
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Mar 2018, 11:52 AMEsxile


Dear Vipper, why are you so wrong?

Ostheer doesn't pay for their upgrade, this is balanced, and nobody complains about it, that's all.

I am so wrong in what?

That bundle grenades require BP 1 to be unlocked? Hover you mouse over bundle grenades icon and you will see it saying that it requires BP 1 to be unlocked.
19 Mar 2018, 08:57 AM
#25
avatar of BenKenobi

Posts: 37

How does one even have a bundle grenade equipped unit before BP1?
19 Mar 2018, 09:03 AM
#26
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

How does one even have a bundle grenade equipped unit before BP1?

Storm troopers, 250 pg.

19 Mar 2018, 09:18 AM
#27
avatar of strafniki

Posts: 558 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Mar 2018, 17:53 PMAlphrum
listen Katitof is a troll, you shouldn't open new threads just because of the nonsense he sprouts on other threads


why was he unbanned again?
19 Mar 2018, 09:28 AM
#28
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Lets try to get somethings straight.

BP1 is tech and it has a cost.

It unlocks the following things:
LMG for grenadiers
Rifles grenades for grenadiers
Bundle grenades
Model 24 stielgranate grenade assault
The T2 building

All these things come at the cost the BP1 research.

Saying that any of these things has no actual tech cost is simply inaccurate/misleading.

(added grenade assault)
19 Mar 2018, 10:28 AM
#29
avatar of BenKenobi

Posts: 37

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2018, 09:03 AMVipper

Storm troopers, 250 pg.

Would you be so kind and provide me with some replays in which you have these things before BP1?
19 Mar 2018, 10:33 AM
#30
avatar of Brotgrenadier

Posts: 33

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2018, 09:28 AMVipper
Lets try to get somethings straight.

BP1 is tech and it has a cost.

It unlocks the following things:
LMG for grenadiers
Rifles grenades for grenadiers
Bundle grenades
The T2 building

All these things come at the cost the BP1 research.

Saying that any of these things has no actual tech cost is simply inaccurate/misleading.


That is a flawed way of looking at WM ability requirements. You view teching as a "bundle" consisting of tech and abilities, but the unlock merely serves as a time constraint. Its similiar to shifting OKW nade requirements around deployed truck/truck on field without changing the cost of teching.

It is common practice in many RTS to add a time delay by locking it behind other tech, not to combine the cost, but to provide a free ability at a later time. Starcraft also utilizes this principle a lot, and so do many other games.

Its not inaccurate or misleading because the abilites dont influence the tech cost, and only require the techup in order to delay its availability.
19 Mar 2018, 10:59 AM
#31
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


Would you be so kind and provide me with some replays in which you have these things before BP1?

Why? would a replay change the fact the bundle grenades require BP1?

I did not claim this is balance issue in any way. I simply point out the bundle grenades require BP1 which is a fact.

Also answered your question on how Ostheer can have a unit with access to bundle grenades without BP1, which is with the doctrinal access to Stormtroopers or PG. which is again not balance issue.

Do you have a point you want to make?
19 Mar 2018, 11:09 AM
#32
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



That is a flawed way of looking at WM ability requirements. You view teching as a "bundle" consisting of tech and abilities, but the unlock merely serves as a time constraint. Its similiar to shifting OKW nade requirements around deployed truck/truck on field without changing the cost of teching.

It is common practice in many RTS to add a time delay by locking it behind other tech, not to combine the cost, but to provide a free ability at a later time. Starcraft also utilizes this principle a lot, and so do many other games.

Its not inaccurate or misleading because the abilites dont influence the tech cost, and only require the techup in order to delay its availability.

You can look things your way if you want. If in your opinion Ostheer get "free" things, they are not the only one, UKF, USF and OKW get free things also.

Time-delay is in game in the form of CPs.

In addition if in you opinion Ostheer tech work as time restriction one could consider "side tech" that bypasses that restriction as an extra cost for the choice of when and if one will unlock a tech.

Bottom line here is that Ostheer hardly have any advantage because of their tech tree.

They have sort of linear tech rigid progression in some way similar to UKF but they also have to build their buildings.

19 Mar 2018, 11:34 AM
#33
avatar of Brotgrenadier

Posts: 33

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2018, 11:09 AMVipper

You can look things your way if you want. If in your opinion Ostheer get "free" things, they are not the only one, UKF, USF and OKW get free things also.

Time-delay is in game in the form of CPs.

In addition if in you opinion Ostheer tech work as time restriction one could consider "side tech" that bypasses that restriction as an extra cost for the choice of when and if one will unlock a tech.

Bottom line here is that Ostheer hardly have any advantage because of their tech tree.

They have sort of linear tech rigid progression in some way similar to UKF but they also have to build their buildings.



Time delay with CPs doesnt work with stock units which dont come from doctrines, neither does it work with stock abilites, these would be delayed with veterancy requirements.

Im not saying Ost has an advantage to other factions in terms of teching, and i strongly agree that the linear progression with structure building is a disadvantage for Ost.

I personally would welcome some changes such as reduced build time, or reduced tech time. So i do agree with you on that, but that is a seperate problem in itself, and the problems you note are merely symptoms of that and not the core issue.
19 Mar 2018, 11:41 AM
#34
avatar of BenKenobi

Posts: 37

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2018, 10:59 AMVipper

Also answered your question on how Ostheer can have a unit with access to bundle grenades without BP1, which is with the doctrinal access to Stormtroopers or PG. which is again not balance issue.

Do you have a point you want to make?

Yes, that your thread has no relevance to anything and is completely redundant and pointless

Also, if you like extensive formalism, so be it.

I have not asked you whether it is possible (ie. whether the game allows it) to have a bundle grenade unit before BP1 but how does one even have such a unit before BP1. This question must be interpreted as a question regarding the factual occurence in games actually played, not theory crafting from game mechanisms. In essence, this question basically stands as: how does anyone actually have these units before BP1 so that part of the thread can have any value.

19 Mar 2018, 11:46 AM
#35
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Time delay with CPs doesnt work with stock units which dont come from doctrines, neither does it work with stock abilites, these would be delayed with veterancy requirements.

Im not saying Ost has an advantage to other factions in terms of teching, and i strongly agree that the linear progression with structure building is a disadvantage for Ost.

I personally would welcome some changes such as reduced build time, or reduced tech time. So i do agree with you on that, but that is a seperate problem in itself, and the problems you note are merely symptoms of that and not the core issue.

Well I did note them as problems but I simply responded to certain claims that where creating the impression that Ostheer tech offered some sort of advantages over other factions.

I am glad that we agree that it does not.
19 Mar 2018, 11:57 AM
#36
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


I have not asked you whether it is possible (ie. whether the game allows it) to have a bundle grenade unit before BP1 but how does one even have such a unit before BP1. This question must be interpreted as a question regarding the factual occurence in games actually played, not theory crafting from game mechanisms. In essence, this question basically stands as: how does anyone actually have these units before BP1 so that part of the thread can have any value.


This does not apply only to bundle grenades but to all grenades and assault grenadiers do not have access to their grenades before BP1. And just to clarify I am not claiming that they should have access to grenades from the start.

On the other hand the fact ostheer grenades require BP1 does have an affect on the gameplay.

If you are asking how can one have unit with grenades be available before BP1 I am telling via doctrines.

If you are asking me if it is a common occurrence to get the units with grenades before BP1, my answer it is almost in every case for assault grenadiers, less common for ST, PG.

If you are asking if it has happen to me, I would say, yes I had a couple 2vs2 game where I called ST before PB1.

If you are asking me if it is balance issue I would say not an important one.


Yes, that your thread has no relevance to anything and is completely redundant and pointless

Also, if you like extensive formalism, so be it.

If that is how you feel about it I would advice you not to read it.

Once more is there an actual point you want to make about Ostheer teching or are you simply arguing "pointlessly" in a "pointless" thread?
19 Mar 2018, 12:40 PM
#37
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2018, 09:28 AMVipper
Lets try to get somethings straight.

BP1 is tech and it has a cost.

It unlocks the following things:
LMG for grenadiers
Rifles grenades for grenadiers
Bundle grenades
The T2 building

All these things come at the cost the BP1 research.

Saying that any of these things has no actual tech cost is simply inaccurate/misleading.


It is a TECH COST.
Not a SIDE COST.
You pay extra for nothing and that cost is balanced to allow you med armor at almost the same time as any other faction who Needs to pay extra for stuff that directly delays tech.

It does NOT serve the function of strategical planning next resource expense, but merely a timing and tech pace function.

That was the whole point you were so stubbornly trying to argue against.

Or you still want to pretend that battlephases serve the exact same role as zooks, nades, aec/bofors or squad bolster upgrades for other factions and make your tech slower with the option to skip them for faster tech?

I am not able to tell the reason, but its impossible for you to comprehend the idea of what a side cost is and how it relates to tech path and timing.
19 Mar 2018, 12:49 PM
#38
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808

im pretty sure bp1 costs cover both the tech and upgrades costs tied together. Unless relic or the mod team have said otherwise
19 Mar 2018, 12:51 PM
#39
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2018, 12:40 PMKatitof

It is a TECH COST.
Not a SIDE COST.
You pay extra for nothing and that cost is balanced to allow you med armor at almost the same time as any other faction who Needs to pay extra for stuff that directly delays tech.

It does NOT serve the function of strategical planning next resource expense, but merely a timing and tech pace function.

Once more PLS, do not press the quote button if what you are going to say is irrelevant to what you are quoting.

I never claimed that bundle grenades are a "side cost", on the contrary I clearly said BP1 is tech and has a cost.

Let my explain also something else, BP1 does not unlock medium armor so I would suggest that you leave medium armor out of it.

If in your opinion, Ostheer have an actual advantage because of their tech tree pls explain and elaborate instead of talking semantics about "Tech Costs" and "Side Costs".

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2018, 12:40 PMKatitof

That was the whole point you were so stubbornly trying to argue against. Or you still want to pretend that battlephases serve the exact same role as zooks, nades, aec/bofors or squad bolster upgrades for other factions and make your tech slower with the option to skip them for faster tech?

I am not able to tell the reason, but its impossible for you to comprehend the idea of what a side cost is and how it relates to tech path and timing.

The only one being stubborn here is you, that to quote me and post with purpose of simply proving me wrong.

Finally pls stop putting words in mouth.

(contrary to what you write I never pretended that battlephases serve the exact same role as zooks,...)

19 Mar 2018, 12:54 PM
#40
avatar of Oziligath

Posts: 192

I'm not sure about the use of this topic but i feel that the teching from whermath is actually good right now.
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