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(2) Vilshanka - Season 1

9 Mar 2018, 16:46 PM
#1
avatar of Tric
Master Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1400 | Subs: 3

Map created with Theodosios, with a focus on a Eastern Front feel, interview coming soon!

Tournament Info


Seasonal Map Cup - Season 1 Workshop Collection

Vilshanka Workshop Link


Co-Creator Interview



Loading Screen


Minimap



North VP



Middle VP



South VP


16 Mar 2018, 23:08 PM
#2
avatar of Tric
Master Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1400 | Subs: 3

Interview now uploaded, transcript coming soon.
11 Jul 2018, 13:12 PM
#3
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 4893 | Subs: 18

Hey Tric,
congratulation for your map being in the 1vs1 automatchpool now. Sadly only with numbers. Steam pls....
I assume alot of people played already on this map in your Cups.
But seems like most of the people didn't use the tactical map (I assume Luvnest never played in any cups :( )

Problem:
If you spawn left side you have a problem to make a capping shift order, because you can't click on the point at all.
https://prnt.sc/k56kla
If you spawn right side you have kind of the same problem, but its less. There you have the chance to click on the point sometimes. Not perfect but atleast better then on left side.
https://prnt.sc/k56ln6
Fix:
I guess to fix this problem: Move the bunkers some meters more into the basearea.
11 Jul 2018, 13:26 PM
#4
avatar of Tric
Master Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1400 | Subs: 3

See you in 4 months when it gets fixed. This is why there needs to be a separate automatch or closed testing client. The damn thing has been in rotation for 15 seconds and already something someone should've found on the 24 or so people that played it in a tourney.

Important to note it was widely the most played map in TWO seasons of the tourney.
11 Jul 2018, 13:56 PM
#5
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1789

Is there a chance other 1v1 SMC maps are added aswell? Or just Vilshanka?
11 Jul 2018, 14:10 PM
#6
avatar of |GB| The Hooligan486
Senior Referee Badge

Posts: 3599 | Subs: 1

where is blametalisman ferma
11 Jul 2018, 15:23 PM
#7
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 4893 | Subs: 18

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 13:26 PMTric
See you in 4 months when it gets fixed. This is why there needs to be a separate automatch or closed testing client. The damn thing has been in rotation for 15 seconds and already something someone should've found on the 24 or so people that played it in a tourney.

Important to note it was widely the most played map in TWO seasons of the tourney.


Hehe:P

And well, if you want we can put this in the september patch :) So only 2 Months.
11 Jul 2018, 16:10 PM
#8
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3047

Why can't it simply be hotfixed? It's not like Relic can't patch it for two months.
11 Jul 2018, 20:19 PM
#9
avatar of Tric
Master Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1400 | Subs: 3

where is blametalisman ferma


If people actually want the maps from SMC, then people need to ask. I'm fine with whatever the co-creators want. As they get opened up to people crying about it to, and some people don't want to deal with that.

So until people ask and the co-creators say its a-ok. I won't do anything.
11 Jul 2018, 20:19 PM
#10
avatar of Tric
Master Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1400 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2018, 16:10 PMLago
Why can't it simply be hotfixed? It's not like Relic can't patch it for two months.


Skeleton team + they have to pay steam everytime they upload?

That would be my guess.

26 Jul 2018, 19:36 PM
#11
avatar of Diogenes5

Posts: 269

I enjoy Tric's maps in general but this is probably one of my least favorite ones. The main problem is that it is boring. It is like Langres where you the middle of the map is basically where all the action takes place with very little mattering on the sides in terms of flanking or the corners. The fuel cutoffs are basically only a little off to the sides of a straight line between the two bases.

All the conflict points are basically a hop, skip and step away from simply attacking the other person's base.
26 Jul 2018, 20:22 PM
#12
avatar of Tric
Master Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1400 | Subs: 3


I love this. "the map is boring" but is balanced and a player favorite? So I make a map that is fun and "its fucking shit" because people have to play differently on it, how does anyone win?

It is simply amazing to me. That there aren't more map makers or more contests to make free content for such a great and wonderful community that always acts like an entitled brat every single time they get something.

The veto button is right there. If it's boring, then don't play the map. Simple. But seriously what is this complaint? How am I or anyone else for that matter, supposed to fix "it's boring".

Like, I'm glad that you like most of my maps, but seriously. What does this sort of feedback accomplish?

"All the conflict points are basically a hop, skip and step away from simply attacking the other person's base"

Really? I would love to see you contest munitions and fuel and be in the persons base. I'm sorry, but I don't see it at all. I didn't see it in replays for 5 months. I didn't see it in the two separate tournaments of top 100 players or higher (mostly top 20 and higher). Those players didn't feel it either.

In fact, as I stated in the shoutbox it was almost in GCS2 by player request. It is in match making by player request. So truly... what do you want from us?

You want non-cookie cutter maps that are fun? Then add more maps and give more vetos, but that isn't on the horizon. You want balanced maps? Can't have non-standard ones then. Its a lose, lose every time, and the only thing "feedback" like this does is push the content creators out of the community. I know you may not be trying to be harsh, but seriously its going on 3 years now.

I've done my best, and so have the other mappers, to teach this community on how mapping works, and how to get involved yourselves. If you think you can do it better, do it. I'll help you. Its the whole reason I am here. You got 100 questions? I got 100 answers, but please... What you said in your post, you just described all maps in automatch.

27 Jul 2018, 09:46 AM
#13
avatar of Siphon X.
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 1128 | Subs: 2

Ok, I'm trying to moderate here because I have the impression that you guys are talking slightly cross purposes.

I took some measurements in the worldbuilder and compared those to other maps in the GCS2 map-pool. Now, of course you are right that the map is about the same size as e.g. Crossroads, KF or FA (Crossing is quite a bit larger but also has to work as 2v2 map, so I'll drop that from the rest of the discussion).

The distance from base to base is about 220 meters on each. Likewise, the distance of the outermost capping points (i.e. length of the supposed frontline) is about 230 m and thus very similar (Crossroads FP to FP: 231 m, KF: VP to VP 235 m, FA: VP to VP 240 m, Vilshanka: STP to STP 229 m).

Now, I guess the reason why the map is perceived as small by some players is that the outermost points do not appear to be worthwhile to fight over (they would be mostly be relevant if you want to connect to the opponents fuel via the long route, but a) this is also possible through mid and b) is hard to achieve due to FPs being so close to the base).

Effectively, it may be perceived so that the area of interest (VP to VP) is only about 143 m wide. Within this strip you can secure all three VPs, connect to all FPs and threaten all relevant cut-offs.

Now, I can't say if that is really how the map plays out as I haven't played it yet and even if I would have, I'm too bad of a player to say anything qualified, but in case you get more feedback along these lines and feel it could be justified, my suggestion would be to make those outer points more valuable by e.g.:

  • Move the FPs slightly outwards (blue arrows below); you'd probably need to put it something sight blocking towards the outer houses then...

  • Make it so that the central VP does not connect to all 6 surrounding point but maybe only to four (extending the outmost areas like indicated with the ellipses below) or even only the two.


Edit: I checked out the SMC VODs, seems like the FP for the tournaments were actually moved up like suggested, only without sight blocker towards the houses...






27 Jul 2018, 10:24 AM
#14
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1789

I played only a couple of times on Vilshanka but liked it each time. Can´t say anything negative about it really. Well done Tric and Theodosios.
28 Jul 2018, 03:57 AM
#15
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742 | Subs: 1

My thoughts:



Moving the fuel and munitions are just afterthoughts with the intent to redistribute some of the resource weight on the map.

There's a very specific design intent on this map that I am not really privy to, so I'll leave it at that.
28 Jul 2018, 04:33 AM
#16
avatar of Tric
Master Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1400 | Subs: 3



Moving the points with the blue arrows causes building imbalances. As you would have to contest with indirect fire or flames if someone got an MG into either of the buildings. Especially a vickers vet1. So they were moved farther back to have the buildings still be effective, but not overbearing. Moving them forward as you suggest favors the west side base.

And sight blockers were added to the west base area. This was due to not having an additional flanking route as was created for the east area.

On the east there was also added additional green cover along the attack path from the house(s) to mimic the west.

The point that is just outside the base is a "Free" point. As we didn't want to make a massive secondary cutoff along the roads for multiple purposes (red cover, messing up vehicle pathing, and making the map too cutoff-centric leading to camping in the north/south and assaulting the middle vp / cutoff over and over again)

Also the discussion about the shorter distances between VPS is intentional. You have sight blockers, buildings and negative cover to traverse and fight through for all of them, except the middle vp which has no building coverage. If we were to space them either further out, you would get even more camping in buildings (right now it is pretty player/strategy specific if it happens) and cause stagnant play from securing north/south and only fighting over the middle VP.

For example if you swapped the munitions and the VPS that is even further from base to base and makes the retreat path that much more treacherous. You already see top players move in along the retreat paths with ease to secure wipes. This would become even easier to do with the objective being further away.

Also putting the fuels in the corners is a rule we learned long ago to never do. 1 MG covers the entirety of corners unless you want to put a million sight blockers there to break up the LoS. Which then messes up vehicle pathing, is easy to abuse defense structures around/mines, and still is holdable by 1 MG the majority of the game.

With even more spread of the resources, all you get is "select all my units and a-move to that destination", which was not the intent. This map favors players that can assault/harass multiple points while having main engagements in the central area of the map. During SMC with the current layout we have seen the map play largely different every time based on the player matchups. With some preferring to assault/defend from the north/south or sit in the middle. It also lends itself to several different strats that are neither OP or UP because of map design.

I'm not arguing that the map is perfect. None of them are. Especially when asymmetry (no matter how slight) is involved.

Also not including crossroads is a huge fault, as if its played in 1v1 it should be included in analyzing other maps.
28 Jul 2018, 04:38 AM
#17
avatar of Tric
Master Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1400 | Subs: 3

I played only a couple of times on Vilshanka but liked it each time. Can´t say anything negative about it really. Well done Tric and Theodosios.


Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. All I did was make it look nice. Myself and theo spend about 1-2 hours talking about the layout of this map, and it went through multiple iterations (master cutoff originally), hopefully this is up to snuff to stay around for a good amount of time.
30 Jul 2018, 03:20 AM
#18
avatar of Diogenes5

Posts: 269

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jul 2018, 20:22 PMTric

I love this. "the map is boring" but is balanced and a player favorite? So I make a map that is fun and "its fucking shit" because people have to play differently on it, how does anyone win?

It is simply amazing to me. That there aren't more map makers or more contests to make free content for such a great and wonderful community that always acts like an entitled brat every single time they get something.

The veto button is right there. If it's boring, then don't play the map. Simple. But seriously what is this complaint? How am I or anyone else for that matter, supposed to fix "it's boring".

Like, I'm glad that you like most of my maps, but seriously. What does this sort of feedback accomplish?

"All the conflict points are basically a hop, skip and step away from simply attacking the other person's base"

Really? I would love to see you contest munitions and fuel and be in the persons base. I'm sorry, but I don't see it at all. I didn't see it in replays for 5 months. I didn't see it in the two separate tournaments of top 100 players or higher (mostly top 20 and higher). Those players didn't feel it either.

In fact, as I stated in the shoutbox it was almost in GCS2 by player request. It is in match making by player request. So truly... what do you want from us?

You want non-cookie cutter maps that are fun? Then add more maps and give more vetos, but that isn't on the horizon. You want balanced maps? Can't have non-standard ones then. Its a lose, lose every time, and the only thing "feedback" like this does is push the content creators out of the community. I know you may not be trying to be harsh, but seriously its going on 3 years now.

I've done my best, and so have the other mappers, to teach this community on how mapping works, and how to get involved yourselves. If you think you can do it better, do it. I'll help you. Its the whole reason I am here. You got 100 questions? I got 100 answers, but please... What you said in your post, you just described all maps in automatch.



Well my intent was to point out that your maps have gotten better over time because they take more risks. I understand why this map made it because it doesn't shake things up much. The design choices are safe like VP placement and cutoff placement. I watched the last season and the maps seemed so much better in terms of game diversity and took more risks in placement and design.

Vilshanka is balanced and safe and fits in with the other maps but goddamn we're all so tired of these maps after 5 years.

The whole point of adding new maps was to shake things up. I'd rather Relic take some risks and put in maps that are actually different. We lived for too long with 2 versions of Semoisky or 2 versions of Kholderny Ferma and pure crap like Angloville. I was really looking forward to seeing some of your new maps in the pool but instead they probably picked one of your oldest, safest ones. To me, it's boring and defeats the purpose.
30 Jul 2018, 09:01 AM
#19
avatar of Siphon X.
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 1128 | Subs: 2

Thanks for the reply.

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jul 2018, 04:33 AMTric

During SMC with the current layout we have seen the map play largely different every time based on the player matchups.


Well, but it did look like during SMC the FPs were moved up, no?


jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jul 2018, 04:33 AMTric

Also not including crossroads is a huge fault, as if its played in 1v1 it should be included in analyzing other maps.


I was talking about Crossing (in the Woods). Point that I wanted to make was that the map is not objectively smaller than others. Crossing in the Woods, however, is larger than the others (Base2base 264m, Frontline (FP2FP) 273m), so using this as an example to argue that Vilshanka was a small map would be misleading.
30 Jul 2018, 09:21 AM
#20
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 4893 | Subs: 18

Do you have a sga file for me for the reworked version?
Should be until 10 august.
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