I know it's a new patch, but with some testing, I think I can say that Volks with the Feuersturm doc MP40 upgrade are underperforming by a fairly large degree (especially with vet). It seems that they either cant get close enough (very squishy) or once they are close, deal very little damage, especially against vetted units.
Doing some testing on neutral ground (i.e. no cover), this is what I've found:
Vet 0 Volks w/ MP40s closing from out of range to close range against vet 0 penals will result in penals winning with 3-4 models left.
Vet 5 Volks w/ MP40s closing from out of range to close range against vet 3 penals will result in penals winning with 5 models left.
Vet 0 Volks w/ MP40s closing from out of range to close range against vet 0 cons will result in a tie (usually 1 model left with almost no HP).
For a comparison, I then flipped it and tried cons w/ PPSH's attacking:
Vet 0 Cons w/ PPSHs closing from out of range to close range against vet 0 volks will result in cons winning with 3-4 models.
Vet 3 Cons w/ PPSHs closing from out of range to close range against vet 5 volks will result in cons winning with 4 models.
Basically, MP40 volks with vet are significantly worse than even (less expensive) cons. My suggestion would be to increase the defensive buff the upgreade gives, and also give them a bit more damage.
MP40 Volks Under-performing
26 Dec 2017, 22:32 PM
#1
Posts: 959
Opinions reflect all team modes (not 1v1)
I often edit my posts several times after posting
I often edit my posts several times after posting
26 Dec 2017, 22:59 PM
#2
1 
Posts: 147
I think a link to a testing video would be very useful for this kind of thread. Not trying to disparage your claims but it would serve to back them up.
26 Dec 2017, 23:00 PM
#3
Posts: 747 | Subs: 2
It's a situational upgrade. Let's keep in mind: CQB units attacking over open ground without cover is pretty stupid, especially against units that are perfect against this kind of play (Penals). PPsh Cons not only are the main core of the infantry, they are also the elite. Meanwhile your elite consists of Sturmpios and Obersoldaten which are vastly superiour to cons.
Another thing: pitting units against each other in a vacuum is generally not a good method to prove a point.
Keep in mind the upgrade also comes with smoke grenades and flamers for Sturmpios.
Another thing: pitting units against each other in a vacuum is generally not a good method to prove a point.
Keep in mind the upgrade also comes with smoke grenades and flamers for Sturmpios.
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27 Dec 2017, 00:02 AM
#4
Posts: 959
I think a link to a testing video would be very useful for this kind of thread. Not trying to disparage your claims but it would serve to back them up.
I'll give it a try, but I don't have anything to edit video with. Either way, each test was run 3 times, with additional tests if the results were inconsistent (i.e. sometimes win with 4 models, other times lose by 1).
It's a situational upgrade. Let's keep in mind: CQB units attacking over open ground without cover is pretty stupid, especially against units that are perfect against this kind of play (Penals). PPsh Cons not only are the main core of the infantry, they are also the elite. Meanwhile your elite consists of Sturmpios and Obersoldaten which are vastly superiour to cons.
Another thing: pitting units against each other in a vacuum is generally not a good method to prove a point.
Keep in mind the upgrade also comes with smoke grenades and flamers for Sturmpios.
That's sort of my point. Cons closing at long range against volks (which are supposed to be great at range) will easily win, but volks doing the same against penals will not. The difference between how the two perform is incredibly massive.
PPSH cons are also not elite. Not by game logic standards (they're not flagged as elite) nor by gameplay standards (shocks are elite CQB units). The tooltip for cons states that they are "basic troops with little combat training or experience" and are "cheap troops".
As for Obers, I decided to test those as well (3-5 tests each):
Vet 0 Cons w/ PPSHs closing from out of range to close range against vet 0 obers will result a tie (usually 1 model left with almost no HP).
Vet 0 Cons w/ PPSHs closing from out of range to close range against vet 0 LMG obers will result in obers winning with 2-4 models.
Vet 3 Cons w/ PPSHs closing from out of range to close range against vet 5 obers will result in cons winning with 2-3 models.
Vet 3 Cons w/ PPSHs closing from out of range to close range against vet 5 LMG obers will result in cons winning with 2-3 models.
As you can see, there isn't any consistency to the behavior of the units: cons will win closing on elite units (with vet, with upgrades, etc.) while MP40 volks will lose. However, both units are very similar: main-line infantry costing 240-250mp with doc-locked SMG upgrades costing 40-45muni.
Opinions reflect all team modes (not 1v1)
I often edit my posts several times after posting
I often edit my posts several times after posting
27 Dec 2017, 01:02 AM
#5
Posts: 2742
PPSH cons are also not elite. Not by game logic standards (they're not flagged as elite)
No unit is flagged as 'elite' in CoH2. It is not a thing in the game.
What does (now) exist are different versions of certain slot_items, specifically the PTRS that have different values depending on which squad is holding it. This is a very recent addition and the only thing that could delineate a squad as 'elite' because one might decide to call the Guard version of PTRS the 'elite' version.
Calling a unit in this game 'elite' is at best subjective rating, and not a real game mechanic. As such, the argument that one squad should or should win in a fight with another squad because of their subjective 'eliteness' is more or less meaningless.
There are a lot of factors that go into a player having a conscript squad, with PPSh, and getting it to vet 3. Likewise there are a whole lot of components that get you to having a vet 5 Obersoldaten holding an LM34. When you start to take into account those kinds of factors, and the kinds of roles these units tend to have on the field, you should start to realize that pure combat performance is not actually a great metric of balance.
Also the tooltips ingame have, like, never been accurate.
Strategic Territory Points Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
27 Dec 2017, 01:09 AM
#6
Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1
MP40s is more about the fact it gives you Smoke and a Regular Grenade, it's an utility, for DMG purposes you can always use the STGs instead.
27 Dec 2017, 02:22 AM
#7
Posts: 959
No unit is flagged as 'elite' in CoH2. It is not a thing in the game.
What does (now) exist are different versions of certain slot_items, specifically the PTRS that have different values depending on which squad is holding it.
Good to know, thanks.
There are a lot of factors that go into a player having a conscript squad, with PPSh, and getting it to vet 3. Likewise there are a whole lot of components that get you to having a vet 5 Obersoldaten holding an LM34. When you start to take into account those kinds of factors, and the kinds of roles these units tend to have on the field, you should start to realize that pure combat performance is not actually a great metric of balance.
Sure, but getting an ober squad to vet 5 with an LMG is a much larger investment of time and resources than getting a PPSH con squad to vet 3, or even getting a penal squad to vet 3. So why does the con squad beat the much harder to get vet 5 LMG Ober squad, but the the MP40 volks lose to the easier to get vet 3 penal squad in the exact same situation?
Also the tooltips ingame have, like, never been accurate.
Sure, the exact text might not always be accurate, but the general idea is. A vehicle described as a medium tank will perform well vs. most things, but not have massive range or AT damage. Cons are described as cheap/inexperienced, so I don't see how that unit could be classified as 'elite', even with a vague definition, compared to actual elite squads (per their text) such as Obers, Shocks, etc.
MP40s is more about the fact it gives you Smoke and a Regular Grenade, it's an utility, for DMG purposes you can always use the STGs instead.
Then it's still poorly balanced/designed. A close range upgrade shouldn't make a squad incredibly weak and justify it by giving it smoke and a regular grenade. If the case is that the upgrade is supposed to give utility rather than damage, why not have it just give smoke/regular nade instead of also taking every single weapon slot and removing long-range power?
Opinions reflect all team modes (not 1v1)
I often edit my posts several times after posting
I often edit my posts several times after posting
27 Dec 2017, 02:56 AM
#8
Posts: 1660
Then it's still poorly balanced/designed.
DBP in a nutshell.
The only reason to ever get mp40 is grenades...but he grenade is the RIDICOLOUSLY overglorified model 24 and smoke has a laughable range to be of any kind of use over the normal lava nade.
If i wanted to get a good grenade i would go scarvenge/spec ops and still have lava and stg...
@RedT3rror oh please...when double bar wasted vet 5 falls in DBP testing the excuse was that double bar costed a lot of muni...
Now a sensibly cheaper squad is simply better than a much more expensive squad with same munitions in....
As for Obers, I decided to test those as well (3-5 tests each):
Vet 0 Cons w/ PPSHs closing from out of range to close range against vet 0 obers will result a tie (usually 1 model left with almost no HP).
Vet 0 Cons w/ PPSHs closing from out of range to close range against vet 0 LMG obers will result in obers winning with 2-4 models.
Vet 3 Cons w/ PPSHs closing from out of range to close range against vet 5 obers will result in cons winning with 2-3 models.
Vet 3 Cons w/ PPSHs closing from out of range to close range against vet 5 LMG obers will result in cons winning with 2-3 models.
Ultimate balance...
27 Dec 2017, 04:31 AM
#9
Posts: 818
So far they seemed to get as many kills as my volks with stgs when i used them in tandem. I thought they would be bad but i think the RA really helps and the smoke is very useful.
The smoke nade range is very poor, perhaps that could be improved with veterancy, as i think most other units with smoke have that bonus
The smoke nade range is very poor, perhaps that could be improved with veterancy, as i think most other units with smoke have that bonus
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27 Dec 2017, 05:39 AM
#10
Posts: 721
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA and they nerfed obers more in dbp more hahahahaha
i stated this 100 times but why would mr.smith listen,hey they are little cheaper,which is irrelevant because unit cost more actually since they will be bleeding more,but hey lets not make allied infy cheap lts buff their stats.
obers needed before dbp,their lmg damage up from 6 to8 and passive suppression changed to timed that's all..
not going to even talk about other infantry,but lets get give them useless stuff so we can argue on forums we tweaked them disguised as nerfs
i stated this 100 times but why would mr.smith listen,hey they are little cheaper,which is irrelevant because unit cost more actually since they will be bleeding more,but hey lets not make allied infy cheap lts buff their stats.
obers needed before dbp,their lmg damage up from 6 to8 and passive suppression changed to timed that's all..
not going to even talk about other infantry,but lets get give them useless stuff so we can argue on forums we tweaked them disguised as nerfs
27 Dec 2017, 07:51 AM
#11
Posts: 7
So why does the con squad beat the much harder to get vet 5 LMG Ober squad, but the the MP40 volks lose to the easier to get vet 3 penal squad in the exact same situation?
It's what they call "game balance" in this game nowadays. Axis units must lose to Ally units.
Rather interesting is how they even came up with this whole close-range Volk thing when the real problem has been long range fights vs double BAR/Bren/1919.
27 Dec 2017, 08:19 AM
#12
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
Show us a video of your testing. Vet 5 LMG Obers loosing to a PPSH cons squad that is approaching from max range without Urra is something I cant believe without evidence.
MP40 Volks are strong on CQC maps. I dont know what the problem is. From my experience they also beat PPSH cons at close range. Plus they have smoke, smoke on mainline infantry is always very strong. I dont know what the problem with their smoke grenade is either. It seemed fine when I used the firestorm doctrine.
MP40 Volks are strong on CQC maps. I dont know what the problem is. From my experience they also beat PPSH cons at close range. Plus they have smoke, smoke on mainline infantry is always very strong. I dont know what the problem with their smoke grenade is either. It seemed fine when I used the firestorm doctrine.
27 Dec 2017, 08:25 AM
#13
Posts: 1660
It seemed fine when I used the firestorm doctrine.
Well...last time i checked DBP relased less than a month ago...and you are unranked in every mode with okw, so tell me more about how you think they are strong.
You know..for the same reason you are asking him to show testing...
27 Dec 2017, 08:31 AM
#14
Posts: 1220
Mp40 volks should be like rangers wiht thomsons pls fix that
27 Dec 2017, 08:35 AM
#15
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
Well...last time i checked DBP relased less than a month ago...and you are unranked in every mode with okw, so tell me more about how you think they are strong.
You know..for the same reason you are asking him to show testing...
How am I unranked with OKW? I play 2v2 AT Axis all the time dude. Every game with OKW.
27 Dec 2017, 08:39 AM
#16
Posts: 353
compare to PPSH-41 and Mp-40
Acc 0.2/0.43/0.621 and 0.12/0.24/0.66
moving acc 0.75 all
dmg 4 per hit
ROF ppsh 6 (but if close range Boost to 9 ) and mp-40 8
if Mp-40 need buff mid range acc boost up about 10% ?
Acc 0.2/0.43/0.621 and 0.12/0.24/0.66
moving acc 0.75 all
dmg 4 per hit
ROF ppsh 6 (but if close range Boost to 9 ) and mp-40 8
if Mp-40 need buff mid range acc boost up about 10% ?
27 Dec 2017, 08:58 AM
#17
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
compare to PPSH-41 and Mp-40
Acc 0.2/0.43/0.621 and 0.12/0.24/0.66
moving acc 0.75 all
dmg 4 per hit
ROF ppsh 6 (but if close range Boost to 9 ) and mp-40 8
if Mp-40 need buff mid range acc boost up about 10% ?
Now check what close and mid range is for PPSH-41 and MP-40. (its rather hard to compare weapons without comparing the actual curves).
No unit is flagged as 'elite' in CoH2. It is not a thing in the game.
What does (now) exist are different versions of certain slot_items, specifically the PTRS that have different values depending on which squad is holding it. This is a very recent addition and the only thing that could delineate a squad as 'elite' because one might decide to call the Guard version of PTRS the 'elite' version.
....
Elite infatry do exist in the game from the beginning of the game. PGs, Shock, Guards and Penals where always considered "elite" compared to grenadiers and conscripts that are considered mainline inf arty (regardless if they are "flagged" or not).
"Elite" versions of weapon is not a new thing it also exist from the beginning of the game. (For instance shock troops are able to fire lmg on the move)
Show us a video of your testing. Vet 5 LMG Obers loosing to a PPSH cons squad that is approaching from max range without Urra is something I cant believe without evidence.
Instead of demanding a video what don't do the same test and come back with the results?
27 Dec 2017, 09:06 AM
#18
Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7
Badly made poll, for example I cannot express my opinion there.
What if I think that mp40 volks are currently underperforming compared to stg volks but I want to give them more utility, not raw DPS buff.
I think this unit would have been far more useful if grenade range was like riflemen rifle grenade range and if this unit lost the ability to build sandbags and fire panzerfaust but received incendiary grenade and sprint (could be also with exhaustion if it is too op, or price can go to 20, like conscript one).
The unit should be having utility, not raw power, because STG volks are already a raw power unit
What if I think that mp40 volks are currently underperforming compared to stg volks but I want to give them more utility, not raw DPS buff.
I think this unit would have been far more useful if grenade range was like riflemen rifle grenade range and if this unit lost the ability to build sandbags and fire panzerfaust but received incendiary grenade and sprint (could be also with exhaustion if it is too op, or price can go to 20, like conscript one).
The unit should be having utility, not raw power, because STG volks are already a raw power unit
27 Dec 2017, 09:15 AM
#19
Posts: 353
Now check what close and mid range is for PPSH-41 and MP-40. (its rather hard to compare weapons without comparing the actual curves).
Cruzz's DPS calculator but outdate
not include Volk 0.93 Rec acc buff
PPSH range 30/16/10
Mp-40 range 30/17/10
27 Dec 2017, 17:32 PM
#20
Posts: 249
Badly made poll, for example I cannot express my opinion there.
What if I think that mp40 volks are currently underperforming compared to stg volks but I want to give them more utility, not raw DPS buff.
I think this unit would have been far more useful if grenade range was like riflemen rifle grenade range and if this unit lost the ability to build sandbags and fire panzerfaust but received incendiary grenade and sprint (could be also with exhaustion if it is too op, or price can go to 20, like conscript one).
The unit should be having utility, not raw power, because STG volks are already a raw power unit
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