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Loitering Planes next patch

16 May 2017, 09:39 AM
#1
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



JU-87 loiter
The ability deals higher than artillery-cover grade criticals, on top of murdering everything on its wake

- At the very least remove criticals from the ability



The issue with loitering planes is that they are too RNG and their performance is greatly reduced by number of players and thus AA assets.

So my suggestions for them would be:
1) Have all AA weapon get a toggle ability that changes the weapon from land target to air targets. That would make countering planes require a bit of player input.

2) Remove critical from planes give the HP. HP could go up depending in the number of players (if possible) to counter weight the number of AA guns.

3) Have planes do single attack pass attacking target so that player get at least something from using ability.

4) After initial pass the loitering planes appear but have their accuracy reduce if they are being fired upon (if possible). With this change the ability becomes less RNG and punishes player for having no AA.
16 May 2017, 15:41 PM
#2
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 955

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2017, 09:39 AMVipper

The issue with loitering planes is that they are too RNG and their performance is greatly reduced by number of players and thus AA assets.

So my suggestions for them would be:
1) Have all AA weapon get a toggle ability that changes the weapon from land target to air targets. That would make countering planes require a bit of player input.

2) Remove critical from planes give the HP. HP could go up depending in the number of players (if possible) to counter weight the number of AA guns.

3) Have planes do single attack pass attacking target so that player get at least something from using ability.

4) After initial pass the loitering planes appear but have their accuracy reduce if they are being fired upon (if possible). With this change the ability becomes less RNG and punishes player for having no AA.


Thats an impressively good solution...
16 May 2017, 18:18 PM
#3
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

That way if all 4 players use the ability at the same time the opposing team finds themselves in a terrible situation. Yes, they possibly have 4 times the AA presence, but they also have 16 times the health of planes to chew through.

Current planes have been changed multiple time in the history of the game and currently they are almost on point. Only need some slight polish. Making revolutionary changes at that point will just have unpredicted effects that will need few more years to ballance... What I wrote is just one of these effects.
16 May 2017, 18:36 PM
#4
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

Loiter RNG is indeed very frustrating - the worst offenders that come to mind are Allied Fuel drop getting randomly gibbed by OKW base defenses and and Airborne Strafe (which is already so-so as is and supposed to be one of the highlights of the doctrine) getting totally negated by OKW flak.

I think a similar idea would be to have the target size of loiters increase as their duration goes on - that way they start off relatively safe but are increasingly likely to get shot down as AA zeroes in on them. That's probably hard/impossible to program in though I imagine.
16 May 2017, 21:37 PM
#5
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

Is it possible to negate parts of the AoE of loiter circles in base sectors? For many maps this isn't an issue, but if the base sector is thin and long such as north on faymonville approach, you can drop IL-2 sturmovik strafe right outside the base and watch as it gibs any non fully reinforced infantry sitting on the retreat point. This is partially a map issue, but it still annoying and requires little skill to pull off. Also OKW flak base defenses can be decrewed by planes, I don't think they'll target them manually but if their target goes near them the bullet AoE will hit the crew members.
16 May 2017, 23:18 PM
#6
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

One of the biggest problems with loiters (besides Stuka at loiter) is the fact that they don't work against okw since they get hardcountered by a tech building and base defenses lol. Everyone else had to build their AA or at the bare minimum buy the upgrade on their tanks if available.
16 May 2017, 23:41 PM
#7
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072

One of the biggest problems with loiters (besides Stuka at loiter) is the fact that they don't work against okw since they get hardcountered by a tech building and base defenses lol. Everyone else had to build their AA or at the bare minimum buy the upgrade on their tanks if available.


It's particularly frustrating when they shoot down your logistics glider so you can't get commandos or the FRP

I think OKW base flaks shouldn't shoot down planes at all OR not until all three buildings are teched.
17 May 2017, 00:09 AM
#8
avatar of Budwise
Admin Red  Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2075 | Subs: 2

I brought up this stupid mechanic years ago to Relic. They like the skill planes and they're not gonna change em.
17 May 2017, 02:39 AM
#9
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



It's particularly frustrating when they shoot down your logistics glider so you can't get commandos or the FRP

I think OKW base flaks shouldn't shoot down planes at all OR not until all three buildings are teched.


Even better, why not remove the gimmicky of Flak bunkers on HQ and replace them with MG bunkers as all other factions? (I've always complained about this and the random USF HMG on the circular base). If anything, those flak bunkers should be the ones in the doctrinal ability.

All heavy based AA should had a toggle mode which would go from attacking land or air targets.

Is it possible to negate parts of the AoE of loiter circles in base sectors? For many maps this isn't an issue, but if the base sector is thin and long such as north on faymonville approach, you can drop IL-2 sturmovik strafe right outside the base and watch as it gibs any non fully reinforced infantry sitting on the retreat point. This is partially a map issue, but it still annoying and requires little skill to pull off. Also OKW flak base defenses can be decrewed by planes, I don't think they'll target them manually but if their target goes near them the bullet AoE will hit the crew members.


#Dream: all loiter and single strafe runs (maybe including bombing runs) should work like this: they are called from offmap and they circle around an area. For X amount of time, you have time to select where you want the plane to attack (in that zone).
17 May 2017, 13:19 PM
#10
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1947



Even better, why not remove the gimmicky of Flak bunkers on HQ and replace them with MG bunkers as all other factions? (I've always complained about this and the random USF HMG on the circular base). If anything, those flak bunkers should be the ones in the doctrinal ability.

All heavy based AA should had a toggle mode which would go from attacking land or air targets.



#Dream: all loiter and single strafe runs (maybe including bombing runs) should work like this: they are called from offmap and they circle around an area. For X amount of time, you have time to select where you want the plane to attack (in that zone).


Both of these are solid suggestions. The second one might be hard for Relic to code.

I did two tests where I put a bunch of tanks in a small area and then dropped the loiter ability on them. The Stuka loiter would kill four Shermans and damage a fifth for 200 munitions. The P47 loiter would slightly damage several P4's and take as much as 1/4 of the health of one P4 if rockets managed to hit. In short, up to 3000 damage for 200 munitions or 300 damage for 240.
17 May 2017, 14:06 PM
#11
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

That way if all 4 players use the ability at the same time the opposing team finds themselves in a terrible situation. Yes, they possibly have 4 times the AA presence, but they also have 16 times the health of planes to chew through.

Current planes have been changed multiple time in the history of the game and currently they are almost on point. Only need some slight polish. Making revolutionary changes at that point will just have unpredicted effects that will need few more years to ballance... What I wrote is just one of these effects.

I would suggest testing your scenario in the current situation and watch how fast all 8 planes are shot down by single Quad.
17 May 2017, 14:11 PM
#12
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

jump backJump back to quoted post17 May 2017, 14:06 PMVipper

I would suggest testing your scenario in the current situation and watch how fast all 8 planes are shot down by single Quad.


I'm not against ballancing AA and planes. Or even giving theam HP. I'm against changing their hp/chance of destruction based on number of players, becouse that would allow for new cheese as proven in my last post.
17 May 2017, 14:55 PM
#13
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



I'm not against ballancing AA and planes. Or even giving theam HP. I'm against changing their hp/chance of destruction based on number of players, becouse that would allow for new cheese as proven in my last post.

Again it the current situation a single quad will bring down 2 the planes in the first pass. Even if 8 planes are called at the same time they will not survive very long against a single quad.


In a 4vs4 game there will be more than 1 AA weapons so a solution must be found, if you do not like HP I am open for others.
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