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Changing Infiltration Units

20 Apr 2017, 11:14 AM
#1
avatar of William Christensen

Posts: 396 | Subs: 1

This thread is dedicated to suggestions on changing Infiltration Units

These suggestions will make Infiltration Units more of a harassing, disrupting-the-supply-line unit and if needed, support weapon harassers when upgraded, rather than in the live version where they're basically support-weapon killers due to the insane shock value they had when comes out (Close-range DPS + Powerful grenades). Here are the suggestions:

‎‎
- All Infiltration units got their cost reduce to about 75% of their price right now (Basically a 25% off in price), except Wehrmacht' Stormtroopers and OKW's JLI (For example: Infiltration Commandos now cost 330 MP, Fallschirmjagers cost 330 MP, AT Partysans cost 200 MP, etc.)

- All Infiltration units now come out with their respective faction's bolt-action rifles (For example: Falls with 4 Kar98ks, Commandos with 4 Lee Enfields, JLI with 4 Kar98ks, Stormtroopers with 4 Kar98ks, AT Partysans with 4 Mosins, etc.)

- Axis Infiltration units now decap points 25% faster without restrictions while Allies Infiltration units now decap points 50% faster while out of combat‎. However, they'll lose this feature when upgunned, to further distinct the disrupting role and the harassing role.
(Suggested by ferwiner)


- All Infiltration units now have to buy their original weapons for a cost of some MU. For example: ‎
+ Falls pay 100 MU for 4 FG42s.
+ Commandos pay 80 MU for 4 Stens.
+ Stormtroopers pay 100 MU for 4 StG44s (I take this upgrade as the standard for all other upgrades).
+ JLI pay 30 MU for 1 scoped G43 (If possible, I'm suggesting a package of 2 non-scoped G43 and 1 scoped G43 for 75 MU).
+ AT Partysans pay 60 MU for 1 Panzerschreck.‎
+ Partysans pay 80 MU for 4 PPShs.

- All Infiltration units' grenade start-off with a cool down


The reason why I don't include the Stormtroopers and JLI cause they don't have the same shock value as Commandos/Partysans/Fallschirmjagers:

- Stormtroopers come out with 4 Kar98k, which it's the target we are aiming at for other infiltration units as well.

- JLI only had that 1 scoped G43 being special, the rest are 3 Kar98k (Which is why I suggest a 30 MU upgrade for 1 scoped G43, or if we want to be more special, i'm suggesting a 75 MU package of 2 non-scoped G43 and 1 scoped G43)

- Stormtroopers and JLI already cost rather cheap compare to other ones: 340 MP and 300 MP, respectively. (If JLI get the 75 MU package, their cost will need to raise to 340 MP to prevent spamming). That's why I don't why to reduce their cost as well cause that'll make them way to easy to spam.

There you go! Those are my suggestions... What do ya think?‎
20 Apr 2017, 11:25 AM
#2
avatar of Garrett

Posts: 187 | Subs: 1

Interesting thoughts, but there is a second thread with exactly the same topic just below yours. Why didnt you participate in that debate?
20 Apr 2017, 11:28 AM
#3
avatar of William Christensen

Posts: 396 | Subs: 1

I did! Someone suggested me to create a dedicated thread just about my suggestions so yeah!... The other thread was asking how to change, mine is about a specific change.
20 Apr 2017, 12:02 PM
#4
avatar of Mr.Smith
Master Modmaker Badge

Posts: 2018 | Subs: 16

Those are excellent thoughs. My only concern is that Stens/PPSh/STGs/FG42s will function as slot weapons.

As such, it will no longer be possible to pick weapons from the ground (or keep those units reliable when picking up weapons from the ground).

Stormtroopers could be cheaper MP-wise, so they can act as the MU-heavy countepart of PGrens. JLI should be available to them non-doc as a muni-light alternative. Their popcap and reinforcement cost should also be fixed to PGrens though; currently they make no sense.

In general, though, yeah. Infiltration units should distance themselves from insta-spawn cheese to long-term sustainable combat units.

(AT partysan popcap & reinforcemenct cost vs call-in cost EWWW)
20 Apr 2017, 12:13 PM
#5
20 Apr 2017, 13:33 PM
#6
avatar of ZaneyZap

Posts: 25

I am glad that there seems to be consensus that something needs to be done to the Infiltration Units, and I like this suggestion.

I am also happy to read that Mr.Smith thinks infiltration units shouldn't be the insta-spawn cheese unit they are today.
20 Apr 2017, 13:47 PM
#7
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 970

Grwat idea William Christensen; would love to see this get implemented.
20 Apr 2017, 14:37 PM
#8
avatar of William Christensen

Posts: 396 | Subs: 1

Grwat idea William Christensen; would love to see this get implemented.


In case of implementing, it's all up to the modders/balance makers team, I have no power here... Maybe Mr.Smith can help it out, I don't know. I mean, if this get implemented before the GSC then it would be great! Just think about the number of random insta-nuking cheese got wipe off the game... But still, all up to them ‎
21 Apr 2017, 09:17 AM
#9
avatar of Ægion
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 313

Here is a bit of an idea, with the changes to partisans you could merge them. Have one call in with both upgrades and then make one of the abilities different such as Urban Defense booby trap or a PMD Anti infantry mine from the community defense doctrine. Both of these abilities can be used behind enemy lines to harass the enemy.
21 Apr 2017, 10:23 AM
#10
avatar of William Christensen

Posts: 396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Apr 2017, 09:17 AMÆgion
Here is a bit of an idea, with the changes to partisans you could merge them. Have one call in with both upgrades and then make one of the abilities different such as Urban Defense booby trap or a PMD Anti infantry mine from the community defense doctrine. Both of these abilities can be used behind enemy lines to harass the enemy.


I like the idea though, since it further strengthen the idea of back-line harassers. In addition, this won't make them complete OP cause they're literally 4-man weaker version of combat engineers (Partysans with 4 Mosins are no where good at combat effective, which in my opinion, you either have to upgrade them or have other utility like what you suggested). Also, I think other Infiltration Units should get some kind of similar utilities:

- Stormtroopers got their Medkits replace with "Booby Trap" (Similar to JLI and Ober, can be planted behind enemy lines)

- Infiltration Commandos could either get light AT mines (The one that US' Assault Engineers planted that can temporary immobilize tanks) or trip flare mines? Maybe...

- Fallschirmjager should get something as well, but I haven't come up with anything (JLI already had "Booby Trap" so Falls should have something else)...‎
22 Apr 2017, 11:42 AM
#11
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

This thread is dedicated to suggestions on changing Infiltration Units

My suggestions will make Infiltration Units more of a harassing, disrupting-the-supply-line unit and if needed, support weapon harassers when upgraded, rather than in the live version where they're basically support-weapon killers due to the insane shock value they had when comes out (Close-range DPS + Powerful grenades). Here are my suggestions:



The reason why I don't include the Stormtroopers and JLI cause they don't have the same shock value as Commandos/Partysans/Fallschirmjagers:

- Stormtroopers come out with 4 Kar98k, which it's the target we are aiming at for other infiltration units as well.

- JLI only had that 1 scoped G43 being special, the rest are 3 Kar98k (Which is why I suggest a 30 MU upgrade for 1 scoped G43, or if we want to be more special, i'm suggesting a 75 MU package of 2 non-scoped G43 and 1 scoped G43)

- Stormtroopers and JLI already cost rather cheap compare to other ones: 340 MP and 300 MP, respectively. (If JLI get the 75 MU package, their cost will need to raise to 340 MP to prevent spamming). That's why I don't why to reduce their cost as well cause that'll make them way to easy to spam.

There you go! That's my suggestions... What do ya think?‎


+1 You can count on my vote for these proposals. The main issue is cqc infiltration units, so it makes sense to put bolt actions on them all.
22 Apr 2017, 12:12 PM
#12
avatar of Cafo

Posts: 241

i dislike the idea of on field weapon upgrades just seems stupid... just make the units costly and good like they should be... and come on board with the upgrades, just like falls.

Spammable callins sounds very aids, they should be a rare and situational, this is why partisans are so aids, they are spammable.
22 Apr 2017, 13:05 PM
#13
avatar of Nano

Posts: 212

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2017, 12:12 PMCafo
i dislike the idea of on field weapon upgrades just seems stupid... just make the units costly and good like they should be... and come on board with the upgrades, just like falls.

Spammable callins sounds very aids, they should be a rare and situational, this is why partisans are so aids, they are spammable.


Maybe just a dirty long cool down on some of the better ones might help.
22 Apr 2017, 13:25 PM
#14
avatar of Ayro

Posts: 26

All infiltration units needs a counter chache ability.
22 Apr 2017, 13:42 PM
#15
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2074

I think that the suggestions are good but they need some polish. For example - instead of 25% discount, the units should just come to the field using they real price - the discount would be exactly the amount of MP they payed for infiltration ability before - for example the real price of falls is set to 360 mp and there is no need to change that.

Another thing is the capture bonus. The 10% bonus won't be noticable in any way. I would suggest one of two options:
1. 50% bonus like coh1 riflemen, but only out of combat. They would loose that one when upgunned.
2. 25% bonus like coh1 volks, without additional restrictions.

Ideally I would consider using one approach on some units and the other on the rest to avoid boring unification. Possibly one of them could be applied to all allied infiltration units while the other to all axis ones.
22 Apr 2017, 15:28 PM
#16
avatar of William Christensen

Posts: 396 | Subs: 1

I think that the suggestions are good but they need some polish. For example - instead of 25% discount, the units should just come to the field using they real price - the discount would be exactly the amount of MP they payed for infiltration ability before - for example the real price of falls is set to 360 mp and there is no need to change that.



I didn't know that they had a real cost though... Can you list out the prices of all Infiltration Units? That would be better than just 25% discount.‎



Another thing is the capture bonus. The 10% bonus won't be noticable in any way. I would suggest one of two options:
1. 50% bonus like coh1 riflemen, but only out of combat. They would loose that one when upgunned.
2. 25% bonus like coh1 volks, without additional restrictions.

Ideally I would consider using one approach on some units and the other on the rest to avoid boring unification. Possibly one of them could be applied to all allied infiltration units while the other to all axis ones.


We can keep that same format to ‎CoH2: Axis Infiltration Units had 25% faster decapping rate, while Allies Infiltration Units had a 50% faster decapping rate while out of combat... I'll updated the suggestions ASAP! This is actually pretty good!‎
22 Apr 2017, 16:07 PM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 1127



I didn't know that they had a real cost though... Can you list out the prices of all Infiltration Units? That would be better than just 25% discount.‎

..

cost of units can be found here
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/index.php
22 Apr 2017, 17:26 PM
#18
avatar of William Christensen

Posts: 396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2017, 16:07 PMVipper

cost of units can be found here
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/index.php


Hmm... I'm not sure though... Don't know which to believe: Ferwiner claiming Falls' real cost being 360 MP, or the website claiming it being only 308 MP ... Is there any other source?‎
22 Apr 2017, 17:47 PM
#19
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 1127



Hmm... I'm not sure though... Don't know which to believe: Ferwiner claiming Falls' real cost being 360 MP, or the website claiming it being only 308 MP ... Is there any other source?‎

304 is their cost.
Since they do not have reinforcement discount:
38x4x2=304
22 Apr 2017, 20:53 PM
#20
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 970

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2017, 17:47 PMVipper

304 is their cost.
Since they do not have reinforcement discount:
38x4x2=304

Is that the usual formula for unit costs? It does seem to fit in a lot of cases. I would just make it 300 flat though; 304 seems a bit silly.
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