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OKW's Current Design Problem: The Why and How

24 Feb 2017, 02:24 AM
#1
avatar of The Red Zaku

Posts: 31

It is my personal opinion that OKW has an underlying problem with its design that stems from the decision to change the trucks from being timer based to being purchasable units in combination with shuffling the placement of various units in each of the trucks. (note this applies to 1v1s and to an extent 2v2s, 3v3s and 4v4s are not considered for this post)

Pre-Rework, OKW had this tech structure:

Base Truck
  • Volks
  • Kubel
  • Sturms
  • Rakketten
  • King Tiger (when all other trucks had been built)
Medic Truck
  • Leig
  • IR Half track
  • JagdPanzer IV
  • Free Heals and up-gradable retreat point.
Mech Truck
  • Flack HT
  • Puma
  • Stuka
  • Free Repair and resource conversion
Flack HQ
  • Obers
  • Luchs
  • Panther
  • Panzer 4
  • The BFG on the truck itself

This non-linear tech system is what all of the units in OKW were designed to work around. Notice that none of the trucks have units with overlapping roles. This is because each tier is balanced so that you can tech from any tier to any other tier (with the exception of T3 being unable to be your first tech). Teching from T2 to T1 was just as viable as teaching from T1 to T2, or from T1 to T3, etc... Each tech combo has its own benefits and drawbacks.

Unfortunately, Relic had a hard time balancing OKW and there were several abuseable units and strats, in particular the Volks Spam, Kubelwagons, and the mech truck's resource mechanic and so relic decided to rework OKW to be more enjoyable to play against while also becoming easier to balance.

Post Rework they now have this structure:

Base Truck
  • Volks
  • Kubel (now a capping unit, OKW has no non-doct/vehicle suppression)
  • Sturms
  • Rakketten
  • KT is now a call-in

Medic Truck
  • Leig
  • IR Half track
  • Flack HT
  • Heals and up-gradable retreat point.

Mech Truck
  • Luchs
  • Puma
  • Stuka
  • Repair

Flack HQ
  • Obers
  • JP4
  • Panther
  • Panzer 4
  • The BFG on the truck itself

There were several other changes as well in the initial rework
  • OKW no longer had its own unique resource system, and the conversion ability was removed from mech truck
  • The Kubel is no longer a suppression platform and is now a capping unit
  • Resource fuel cost tweaks for most of OKW's vehicles
  • Trucks no longer come in on a timer, they are now purchasable with fuel and MP

These changes effectively kill the non-linear nature of OKW's teching and create numerous obvious and subtle problems with the faction.
Obvious problems:
  • The Panther is now competing in its role with the JP4, as they both do the exact same job, and the JP4 does it cheaper and arguably more effectively
  • It makes less sense to buy the Flack HT, its overly expensive and very vulnerable to light vehicles and even infantry.
  • Volks Shrek Spam is heavily encouraged due to:
    a.) no other AT options besides the lackluster pupchen (rakketten) until you hit T4
    b.) No longer resource limited by resource mechanics
    c.) Volks are very lackluster until they get high vet, where they become extremely durable
  • Losing T3 in a 1v1 is essentially a game loss, as they now have to pay roughly 150 more fuel for the option of buying a tank again.
  • OKW now essentially has no suppression, making them more vulnerable to allied "blobs"
  • If you want a MG, you have to get one from doct.

Subtle Problems
  • OKW's tech is no longer non-linear. People are now encouraged to rush for T4 as quickly as possible
  • Now that OKW's tech is normalized to other factions, they essentially get free heal/repair when other factions have to pay for theirs.
  • Going for T2 is much riskier than it used to be because you no longer have any healing for your units.
  • The luchs and puma are now directly balanced against eachother. If the Puma has too good AI, it makes no sense to buy the Luchs, and vice versa. It also means that if you decide to buy a luchs, your only AT will be pupchens and Shreks, unless you are willing to now delay the more expensive and necessary T3.
  • T2 becomes much riskier as you are punished heavily for losing a single light vehicle. It's simply not worth the cost of replacing it, as you need that fuel to tech to T4 as quickly as possible.

Relic's responses to this (there are other changes, but those relate to balance, not design issues):
  • You now have to pay to unlock healing and reapair from mech in both fuel and mp.
  • Volks have vet nerfed and Shreks are replaced with Stg44s
  • Sturms now have shreks
  • T0 now gets the (worst in game) MG after you tech.
  • More fuel tweaks and minor performance tweaks.

These changes provide additional issues
  • Sturms are now extremely overloaded. They now have the role of repair, AT and sweeping and are too expensive to get multiples of. You are also penalized extremely by losing your sturms
  • Volks are now in an odd place. They don't perform well at range, but don't beat out close range units either.
  • Going Mech truck is even less incentivized, because you have to pay for the previously free repair. The Puma and Luchs are further stratified into their roles and it is even less practical to buy both.
  • There is absolutely no reason to ever buy a Flack HT. Its cost and performance are completely out of sync.
  • OKW is now forced to choose between being extremely vulnerable to mines, or having to rely on the lackluster pupchen to defend against vehicles
  • OKW's extremely lackluster indirect fire options leave them very vulnerable to MGs.
  • Each truck is now an even larger investment than it was before if you also pay for the benefits that used to be free with the individual trucks, which makes it even less worthwhile to place them outside of the base.

These changes have resulted in an extremely limited OKW that relies almost exclusively on Doctrinal call in units to shore up the weaknesses of the base faction. Scavenge and Spec Ops are dominant because it allows OKW to skip the expensive T4 and instead invest that manpower elsewhere (a problem all factions due to the current light vehicle meta, but hits OKW particularly hard). OKW has gone from a dynamic faction that was unique in its non-linear teching to a mess that relies on the beefy nature of its T4 units to smash its way to victory. Although OKW still has the choice of deciding if they want to go T1 or T2 first, they are punished severely for their choice regardless. Either you will play with nothing but infantry for 3/4ths of the game, or you will have no healing/indirect fire for 3/4ths of the game. The possible unit combinations that you can field is also quite limited, giving you a small reactive toolset in which you are forced to respond to what your opponent builds with little possibility for variation.

Now before you type up your response calling me a nostalgic noob Axis fanboy, I'm NOT saying that old OKW was perfect. There were numerous balance problems with the faction that made it very un-enjoyable to play against. Shrek blobs were still a problem before they reworked OKW (although it wasn't encouraged by the design of the faction nearly to the same degree), there were other units that clearly needed to be adjusted for both larger games and for 1v1s alike. (anyone remember the old suppressing leig or autowipe stuka?) What I am saying is that the rework changed the nature of OKWs problem from a balancing concern to an underlying design issue, and made the faction extremely less fun to play to boot. I think that attempting to balance OKW in the manner that it has been handled post patch is merely treating the symptoms and not the cause. Unfortunately its extremely unlikely that OKW will ever get the rollback/rework that it needs, however I do feel like exposing the issue with how OKW functions will make balance discussion more productive when talking about OKW. If given the option, I would want to roll OKW back to pre-rework statues and then set out balancing the faction from there.
24 Feb 2017, 03:50 AM
#2
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

I think OKW has had core design issues since before these last few reworks.

24 Feb 2017, 06:39 AM
#3
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3141 | Subs: 2

OKW just needa a T0 suppression platform, meaning the MG34 that's already there, without the hindering tech requirement. And smoke, OKW just needs none doc smoke, either on the leigs or on the sturms/volks, but I'd rather go with the leigs or volks.

And finally, be able to build caches. With no unique resource system there is no point in having no caches available since they werent given to the OKW in order to balance their unique resource system.
24 Feb 2017, 07:58 AM
#4
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1

OKW just needa a T0 suppression platform, meaning the MG34 that's already there, without the hindering tech requirement. And smoke, OKW just needs none doc smoke, either on the leigs or on the sturms/volks, but I'd rather go with the leigs or volks.

And finally, be able to build caches. With no unique resource system there is no point in having no caches available since they werent given to the OKW in order to balance their unique resource system.


You can't give a faction as starting unit an Elite troop + T0 best capping unit + T0 ATgun and on top of that a suppressive platform.
24 Feb 2017, 08:28 AM
#5
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2257 | Subs: 1

There is no Problem with OKW.

There's only a problem with brits
24 Feb 2017, 08:57 AM
#6
avatar of The Red Zaku

Posts: 31

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my post. The issue with OKW stems from when they switched the tech system from timed trucks to purchasable units while also switching the units from truck to truck. In particular the JP4 being moved from the med truck to Flack HQ and the Luchs being put into the mech truck. This screws up OKW's army synergy and makes teching linear.

Although there are balance issues that OKW currently suffers from, the core of the problem is the underlying tech structure. Although you could "fix" OKW by just giving them all of the tools that other factions have (T0 MGs, Smoke Nades, Caches, etc...), that doesn't solve the underlying tech issues that OKW has and it ultimately makes them less unique and interesting to play. The Luchs/Puma problem still exists, the JP4 and Panther still compete for the same roll, teching is still linear, volks are still in an odd place, OKW is still over dependent on the T4 building, the cost of the trucks is so high that it is impractical to put them outside of the base and you are still punished a disproportionately high amount for losing particular units in your army (light vehicles/ sturmpios)!

Unless the fundamental design of OKW changes (either to what it once was or to something new) many of these issues are not solvable while still keeping OKW balanced. Even if they do manage to make OKW a balanced and competitive faction, without the aforementioned design change, a significant portion of OKW's kit will still be gimped!
24 Feb 2017, 09:43 AM
#7
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3141 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Feb 2017, 07:58 AMEsxile


You can't give a faction as starting unit an Elite troop + T0 best capping unit + T0 ATgun and on top of that a suppressive platform.


Oh, you mean like how Relic added the mortar to the USF? They already had the best opening, that just added to the power of it, plus some slight diversity.

On top of that, that "elite troop" are not anti infantry terminators, they're the Army's engineers and they are overburdened with having to capture, block, repair, close in with enemy infantry so basically be your shock asssult troops and be your anti tank infantry totting panzershrecks, they're multi purpose and versatile, not OP. Plus they cost 300 manpower.

The raketen sucks because it's bugged and the kubel ain't worth shit outside of being an MG armed schwimmwagen from the first game.

The MG34 is needed to fight early Allied infantry supremacy and help hold ground, similar to the Wermacht and Brits.
24 Feb 2017, 14:07 PM
#8
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



Oh, you mean like how Relic added the mortar to the USF? They already had the best opening, that just added to the power of it, plus some slight diversity.

The raketen sucks because it's bugged and the kubel ain't worth shit outside of being an MG armed schwimmwagen from the first game.

The MG34 is needed to fight early Allied infantry supremacy and help hold ground, similar to the Wermacht and Brits.


USF: they added the mortar cause the only thing you could do was get Rifles and then more Rifles. RE were nerfed to no longer be viable to spam them (i suspect an overreaction to CptSprice strat). The other openings were nerf after been too good. Assault Engineers and Dodge. Pathfinders arrive slightly too late but i'm kinda scared of making them 0CP.

Rak: it's not bugged, it has some bad stats which is kinda compensated by cloak cheese.
Kubel: if you don't like Kubel you don't like microing it. There are 2 scenarios where you Kubel have a hard time: Urban maps (although if you get it to vet1 you'll have a free IR HT) due to MG garrison and light vehicles (M3-Dodge-Bren). Against anything besides Dodge, you have to realise they have too little capping power.
MG34: if it was T0 i don't see why i would open with anything else than Kubel + MG34 and go aggressively to cut off or important strat point.
24 Feb 2017, 14:12 PM
#9
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740

Hey, just FYI, the Flak HQ from the Start did NOT have the Panzer IV which was commander only. Instead it had the Sturmtiger as a stock unit :)
24 Feb 2017, 14:17 PM
#10
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17



USF: they added the mortar cause the only thing you could do was get Rifles and then more Rifles. RE were nerfed to no longer be viable to spam them (i suspect an overreaction to CptSprice strat). The other openings were nerf after been too good. Assault Engineers and Dodge. Pathfinders arrive slightly too late but i'm kinda scared of making them 0CP.


An alternative way to balance Pathfinder arrival is make them come at 0CP, but put the ability on cooldown (say 1 minute).
24 Feb 2017, 14:23 PM
#11
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

What i would like implemented or tested for OKW (reminder this is post WPB with v1.9)

Sturmpios: test in Spring Balance patch, having them be able to upgrade both Schreck and sweeper

Kubel: passive xp gain such as officers

ISG: reduce auto attack range to 80/90. Reduce cd on barrage and barrage keeps current range. Give it smoke. Vet1, modal mode which switches shells to Hollow ones (AT).

Mechanized HQ: get's a tech upgrade which let it gets resource conversion.

Schwerer HQ: no longer comes with Flak gun. Cost is reduced to 1/3 or 1/2 of it's current value. Units available without Flak are JPIV and Obers.
Flak upgrade cost 2/3 or 1/2 and unlocks PIV and PV

Obers: arriving earlier solves some issues with them. If some cost/performance adjustments wants to be done, i'll remove some of its power level at higher vet level (specially passive suppression which is stupid).



24 Feb 2017, 14:28 PM
#12
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

Sometimes I wish this forum had a +1 feature :)
24 Feb 2017, 14:29 PM
#13
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Hey, just FYI, the Flak HQ from the Start did NOT have the Panzer IV which was commander only. Instead it had the Sturmtiger as a stock unit :)


And the original OKW design had them get normal resource income only on points on which they had the trucks deployed and "connected" to your base sector. Which was an obsolete design cause it had issues with map design.
It's no wonder we got a mess of a release with OKW, when the OKW design release had so few beta testing (swap to current design was changed like 7 days before beta ended).

An alternative way to balance Pathfinder arrival is make them come at 0CP, but put the ability on cooldown (say 1 minute).

I'm just cautious of not wanting to create another abomination. With airborne, i would also like seeing the MG/AT gun drop to cost munition instead of mp.
24 Feb 2017, 15:08 PM
#14
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243



ISG: reduce auto attack range to 80/90. Reduce cd on barrage and barrage keeps current range. Give it smoke. Vet1, modal mode which switches shells to Hollow ones (AT).







hell nooo...only if u nerf the range from mortor emplacment too....

How do want to deal whch this OP unit if it all outrange all other unit by far??
24 Feb 2017, 15:12 PM
#15
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

To be fair, some of these issues are being addressed in the WBP - particularly
- SPios having cheaper Medkits at Vet 0 to facilitate going Mechanized
- Improved Raketen targeting
- Buffed Flak HT, Tweaked Luches
- Faster Access to Fausts
- Nerfed Allied Light Vehicles that overly punished OKW if you didn't get Puma (IMO)

I do agree that Obers need some love similar to what Elchino suggested and I think its still a bit too easy to blob vs. OKW due to MG34 not being great at suppression but overall I think OKW will be in a much better place after the patch (which can't come soon enough!)
24 Feb 2017, 15:35 PM
#16
avatar of Muad'Dib

Posts: 368

What i would like implemented or tested for OKW (reminder this is post WPB with v1.9)

Sturmpios: test in Spring Balance patch, having them be able to upgrade both Schreck and sweeper



I think this is very needed. Schrecks & flamethrowers should be exclusive with each other, but not with the sweeper.
24 Feb 2017, 17:02 PM
#17
avatar of The Red Zaku

Posts: 31

What i would like implemented or tested for OKW (reminder this is post WPB with v1.9)

Sturmpios: test in Spring Balance patch, having them be able to upgrade both Schreck and sweeper

Kubel: passive xp gain such as officers

ISG: reduce auto attack range to 80/90. Reduce cd on barrage and barrage keeps current range. Give it smoke. Vet1, modal mode which switches shells to Hollow ones (AT).

Mechanized HQ: get's a tech upgrade which let it gets resource conversion.

Schwerer HQ: no longer comes with Flak gun. Cost is reduced to 1/3 or 1/2 of it's current value. Units available without Flak are JPIV and Obers.
Flak upgrade cost 2/3 or 1/2 and unlocks PIV and PV

Obers: arriving earlier solves some issues with them. If some cost/performance adjustments wants to be done, i'll remove some of its power level at higher vet level (specially passive suppression which is stupid).




I feel like all that will do is heavily incentivize People to continue to build T4 in their base and just never upgrade the flackHQ, pumping out 1-3 JpIVs and obers for the endgame. Hell if it's cheap enough, Luchs rush into jp and obers will be the meta until the jpIV gets hit with the nerf bat, or just jpIV and Ostwind spam. Also the wait time for building any flackHQ units would be stupidly long. If you wanted to build a pIV, you would have to wait for: 1.) the building to finish 2.) the upgrade to finish 3) the p4 to finish.

Even if I'm wron on my above points,, this still doesn't solve how okw is forced to tech to Flack HQ, or that the panther and JP4 still compete for the same roll. It's like if the stug and panther were both t4 for ost. The JP I've should be moved back to the medic truck and the amount of resources you have to put into each truck should be reduced. Hell if people really want to avoid the old tech system that much, trucks should be made a call-in with a cool long cool down for a much lower price.
24 Feb 2017, 17:05 PM
#18
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

hell nooo...only if u nerf the range from mortor emplacment too....

How do want to deal whch this OP unit if it all outrange all other unit by far??


This is a kneejerk reaction if you know what it means. The thread is called OKW, not UK.
I have extensively say in the past that the mortar pit excels at been a really good unit while been afk. I propose a similar change to the mortar pit as well. Reduce auto-attack range while reducing the cooldown on the barrage.
24 Feb 2017, 17:06 PM
#19
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1



An alternative way to balance Pathfinder arrival is make them come at 0CP, but put the ability on cooldown (say 1 minute).


You only want one group of Pathfinders anyway, because they cost 37 MP per model, which is extremely expensive on a manpower heavy Commander as it is.
elchino7 idea could make the weapon team drops more valuable, maybe let Airborne crewed weapons reinforce at beacons too, it would be cool and work well specially with the Paratrooper popcap fix.
24 Feb 2017, 17:13 PM
#20
avatar of some one

Posts: 935

OKW is okeish
First.Give to rakketen phosphorous round ability. Aka Comet.Fix its Aim time.
Second give good desloge power to Lieg similar to Pack Howi

Thats it
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