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Relic, you gonna fix 120mm, or not?

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3 May 2015, 13:11 PM
#221
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702



120 mortar killing stuff from a safe distance without micro?? You don't say ....

That's just what allied arty can do against 4men squads.

Pack Howie is more annoying for me as a Wehrmacht-Fanboy atm, but I think allies need this "anti-camper" abbilty against OK-WEEH nowadays ....

I mean nobody at Relic gives a shit about Wehrmacht anyway ... it's all about Allies against OKW. Balance? Who needs that shit :banana:



Yes, that's exactly why wehrmacht was picked almost 100% of the time over OKW in the last tourney, and thats why they performed so well :foreveralone:
3 May 2015, 14:54 PM
#222
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

Wehr performed well?
I mean, nowadays I'd take OH over OKW any day purely on performance grounds (and I never liked OKW to begin with), but there is a reason the guy with faction choice picks Allies.
3 May 2015, 16:38 PM
#223
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1067

The problem I have with the 120mm is the combination of the following characteristics:

1. Large range- makes them very had to counter opposed to other indirect fire.

2. 6 men squad with 1 needed to retreat- makes it more difficult to counter due to very high survivability

3. It's relatively cheap cost- no tech, no fuel, 400mp instant call in (rarely need to be replaced) and easily spammable. Unlike mortar half tracks, this has no teaching fuel penalty and comes with call in medium tanks.

4. It's lack of required micro to deal extreme damage to your opponent- you don't need to find bunched up enemies, you don't need to use 30 munitions for a dodge able rifle nade, you don't even need to use barrage button. Simply have it behind and shot blocker and micro the rest of your army while then enemy gets bombs rained down on them.

5. It's squad wipe potential- with the perks listed above comes the high potential to inflict huge loses on EVERY INFANTRY BASED UNIT THEY HAVE. Ostheer mortar and soviet mortar is good against static units like support weapons. 120mm often wipes core mobile infantry as well. This is partially because most axis units deal their DPS when stationary which makes them very prone to 120mm wipe machine.

6. It's placement in the game- comes at 2 CPs which means there won't be any stock hard counters around to truly counter and wipe it. Comes in one of the best commanders in the game (Guard Motor Coordination tactics) which gives you 2 ,380MP 130 fuel medium tanks with AT capabilities close to the panther tank and anti infantry capabilities close to the P4, and armor between that of a panther and P4. No tech. You can play the entire match without building t1 or t2.

These combined perks makes the 120mm mortar unbalanced.
All hard counters to this thing require fuel and come too late ( Stuka, MHT, tanks, Stuka dive bomb).
3 May 2015, 16:49 PM
#224
avatar of Aveator

Posts: 16

Maybe severely reducing its ROF. 120mm shells cant be light, and especially having one man hoist a shell into the mortar over and over is unrealistic.

Given its range, damage, ease of use, early arrival, no fuel cost, I think its rate of fire could be the thing to put a damper on. I dont really know the specific of the unit but if its standard barrage is 6 volleys, reduce it to 3 if your manually aiming. Let it keep the presicion strike with vet. On auto fire have the thing just shoot less over time. Or only target support weapons for auto fire. Either dont let the thing retreat (tbh it really shouldnt be allowed to) or reduce the crew size and dont let it survive with one soldier remaining.

Doing this will still make the unit easy for its cost, and I think making the thing more fragile is not too much of a nerf.

Would the unit be balanced if it shot just 25% less? Or is that not the way or enough?
16 May 2015, 05:11 AM
#225
avatar of Ossy

Posts: 42

As said before reduce rof and drecrease accuracy. Right now is extremely op.
16 May 2015, 05:31 AM
#226
avatar of Volsky

Posts: 343

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2015, 22:17 PMKatitof

They reacted to stuff like pshrecks, making pshrecks even more effective AI.
Same for AT gun shots.

Basically if everything bigger then rifle bullet landed near a squad, they would shit themselves and hit the ground.


I'd hit the dirt/jump for cover if anything larger than a rifle bullet hit the ground half a meter from my toe. To do otherwise would be...unwise...
16 May 2015, 06:33 AM
#227
avatar of gman1211

Posts: 132

I've played the soviets as my primary for a long time, the 120mm mortar has always been a subject of debate. If your winning, it solidifies your victory, but if your losing, or can't hold a stable front line, its just an mp drain.

People on this forum tend to greatly exaggerate things. It's not a squad wipe machine, it does however preform like every other mortar and will eventually land a shell in the right place at the right time. And when this happens, you can kiss that squads ass goodbye.
16 May 2015, 14:38 PM
#228
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742 | Subs: 1

The 120mm is the only mortar that wipes entire, full health squads in one shell. All the others often kill 2-3 models and only wipe understrength squads.

That's the only thing about the 120mm that makes it so powerful: it overwhelmingly tips the scales in any battle of attrition. It may not reliably kill a squad or clear a weapon crew (unless it is vet 1 and you tell it to) but every engagement in range of a 120mm is a complete dice roll. Sooner or later a squads going to get deleted, and it won't really be a calculated risk.

And that's what sets the 120mm apart. It tips the scale of battle in almost a completely random fashion, not a calculated or predictable one.
16 May 2015, 16:08 PM
#229
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1364

The 120mm is the only mortar that wipes entire


I beg to differ, all mortars have tendency of squad wiping due to squad bunching.
16 May 2015, 16:53 PM
#230
avatar of MarcoRossolini

Posts: 1033

I've been thinking long and hard about the 120mm. It's important it remains effective and that it remains somewhat in keeping with the notion of it being a 120mm mortar, not a 81/82 mm one.
In games I've played against it, I think the most significant problem is not its squad wiping potential, which admittedly is there and is a danger, but the inability for axis to knock out the weapon and its crew (the six man squad thing).
It's reasonable that both sides (and you see this on Axis side as well with a variety of weapons) have things that force aggressive and creative play from the opponent. We see this all the time with MGs, kubels, flaktracks of all varieties and the like, these are dangerous weapons which require the opponent to use tactics outside the box, be it flanking or whatever.
The problem with the 120mm however is not that its dangerous. I think its unreasonable to continue nerfing the weapon further as that just takes away the point and the flavor of the unit. What needs to be done is the 6 man crew. The crew size, combined with the frankly bizarre feature that allows the unit to survive on one man, means its very difficult to surprise it and then kill it efficiently. All the Soviet player has to do is hit the retreat button and he's pretty safe. With all the other "shock weapons" which demand the opponent to counter it creatively, it's relatively easy to damage them, even on retreat.
This isn't possible with the 120mm, which leaves your axis player not only feeling cheated because his elaborate scheme failed, but further cheated by the fact that the mortar then proceeds to return and wipe his units and the process repeats.

TLDR
The problem ain't the weapon itself doing damage, it should.
The problem is the fact that the weapons too survivable so when it should die, it doesn't.

I think the fact I'm Soviet fanboy extraordinare should add weight to my arguments. :D :D
16 May 2015, 17:23 PM
#231
avatar of Tristan44

Posts: 915

I just used the 120mm liernaux last nite (forgot map name, snowy with town in middle 1v1). Oh my GOD how it performed!!! On small maps it's pretty unstoppable. I nearly covered the entire map from the safety of base mgs, and it's power is 2nd to NONE! My opponent build a stationary at gun, nope, was an utterly worthless investment. I got to grab the replay if I still have it. Seriously I love the 120, it should be strong, but perhaps something needs to be done.
16 May 2015, 18:22 PM
#232
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

500 mp or nerf.Uncounterable Iwipe machine.
NEEDS to be some risk-reward mechanic in place here.
16 May 2015, 18:47 PM
#233
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13684 | Subs: 7

^Because MHT is hard.

Every time I read your complaints and arguments I imagine you taking on combined arms with grenadiers only over the red cover. Tanks and infantry alike. Getting an ass whooped, and coming here, refusing that for vast majority of your balance issues you are the biggest problem.
16 May 2015, 18:53 PM
#234
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742 | Subs: 1



I beg to differ, all mortars have tendency of squad wiping due to squad bunching.


True, hump-cover mechanics do make all squads fairly vulnerable to wipes. Even so, the 120mm seems to be more capable of wiping squads that aren't even in cover. This may, however, have to do with Axis squads being smaller than soviets, and this lack having that 5th or 6th entity straggling outside cover.

I note the 120mm wiping weapon crews with far greater regularity than any other mortar though, in or out of cover. But my anecdotal experiences are just one person's perspective. It's ability to wipe weapon crews is pretty obvious though. And that makes it an exceptionally challenging unit for Ostheer to combat.

My own 120mms when I play soviets almost always are wiped by offmaps, OKW stuka, or negligence to retreat after my front lines get flanked or otherwise collapse. Outside player error, it's most often offmap barrages and that bloody death stuka of OKW that ever takes out my 120.
16 May 2015, 18:59 PM
#235
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2609

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 18:47 PMKatitof
^Because MHT is hard.

Every time I read your complaints and arguments I imagine you taking on combined arms with grenadiers only over the red cover. Tanks and infantry alike. Getting an ass whooped, and coming here, refusing that for vast majority of your balance issues you are the biggest problem.


Spend 40 fuel investing and 45 muni dump constantly just to make that goddamn mortar retreat, very nice argument.
16 May 2015, 19:45 PM
#236
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13684 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 18:59 PMPorygon


Spend 40 fuel investing and 45 muni dump constantly just to make that goddamn mortar retreat, very nice argument.

Can I use the same argument with mark target and call-in tanks against panthers?\
I'm pretty sure I can.
16 May 2015, 19:54 PM
#237
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2609

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 19:45 PMKatitof

Can I use the same argument with mark target and call-in tanks against panthers?\
I'm pretty sure I can.


Mark target and call-in tanks are cheaper and much easier <444>_<444>
Anyway, we don't need to talk about this anymore because you know why.
16 May 2015, 19:55 PM
#238
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1593

^^

Considering that is a diferent situation as both P5s and call-in tanks have tons of counters, while the only effective counter against the 120 is the MHT or Stuka. Conclusion: No.
16 May 2015, 20:01 PM
#239
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 19:45 PMKatitof

Can I use the same argument with mark target and call-in tanks against panthers?\
I'm pretty sure I can.
Atleast you can chase down a panthergive it engine damage and kill it. 120mm mortars will retreat the moment he sees you going for it. Panthers OP? T34/85s+mark vehicle not strong enough?
16 May 2015, 20:06 PM
#240
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13684 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 19:54 PMPorygon


Mark target and call-in tanks are cheaper and much easier <444>_<444>
Anyway, we don't need to talk about this anymore because you know why.

In this case we should just leave this thread as well as we pretty much have noting to add here.
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