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Relic, you gonna fix 120mm, or not?

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28 Apr 2015, 05:25 AM
#181
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

The mortar is 400mp thus limiting unit build early game, I just use scout car harassment. The only way to deal with them at the moment is to kite and flank it, the unit is OP on certain maps.


-Again, being expensive does not justify over-performance. By the same logic we can say Obers are 400, why nerf them? Or Ostheer's panther is very very expensive (considering teching) so it should have Blitz-thethefuck-out of every combat situation. Or we can say Stuka CAS (Lightning War) is perfectly fine since it's 200 muni. But these are all examples of units (and abilities) which are over-performing despite being expensive. If the mortar is to be nerfed, they should definitely lower its cost.

-In smaller games (1s and 2s) you can't simply "kite and flank it". It has 6 men and can retreat with only one, and in some very small maps (Langres for instance) it cover half of the map when positioned inside the base so going for enemy's cut-off is out of the table.

-Most people use 120 with Guards, good luck harassing it with SC.
28 Apr 2015, 06:56 AM
#182
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740

Had a game yesterday where my Stuka zu Fuß wiped about 7 120mm squads (in 3 shots) standing near a FHQ and we won the game with 6 points left.



(If someone wants a replay, I can upload it)
28 Apr 2015, 17:37 PM
#183
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Apr 2015, 02:12 AMacosn




Unless I missed something, efficiency rating is driven by the absolute value of damage done. Consistently killing and forcing infantry to retreat can be more valuable than wiping out the squad if the net cost of consistently reinforcing them without producing results becomes greater than the actual value of the squad.



Unless I'm dealing with a campy motherfucker I don't really think about building the 120mm howitzers.


Except wiping a squad completely removes veterancy, and weapon upgrades. I would much rather make a vet 3 gren squad go poof then just kill 3 of it's models and have it retreat to it's base.

While a 81mm might do more damage in the long run it's having less impact because each model of allies is worth less than it is for Axis. If your fighting Soviets as Ostheer if your mortar kills 3 models, that's the equivalent of only 2 gren models. See what I'm saying?

The Soviet mortars shoot slower, but are more accurate because they are facing smaller squads and thus less quantity is needed and more accuracy is. Not to mention the large AoE on the 120 compared to the 81.

28 Apr 2015, 17:54 PM
#184
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1



Please wait 1-3 months for relic to start attempt #1 at balancing this unit. Please wait 4-6 for it to actually be 90% fixed.


No problems, just relic. They can't nerf walking stuka and luchs for more than 8 month, so.
28 Apr 2015, 20:30 PM
#185
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post28 Apr 2015, 17:54 PMNEVEC


No problems, just relic. They can't nerf walking stuka and luchs for more than 8 month, so.

I can understand stuka, but knowing you, nothing other than nerfing it it into uselessness would satisfy you. Same with luchs that isn't even a problem unit.
28 Apr 2015, 20:51 PM
#186
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Apr 2015, 17:54 PMNEVEC


No problems, just relic. They can't nerf walking stuka and luchs for more than 8 month, so.


The stuka is the most expensive artillery piece in the game, duh it's going to be good. The luchs also is fairly easy to counter for either faciton.
28 Apr 2015, 21:02 PM
#187
avatar of Arclyte

Posts: 692

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Apr 2015, 05:25 AMRMMLz
Again, being expensive does not justify over-performance.




The stuka is the most expensive artillery piece in the game, duh it's going to be good.


lol you people are delusional
28 Apr 2015, 21:04 PM
#188
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Apr 2015, 21:02 PMArclyte




lol you people are delusional


The Stuka is expensive on an entire other level than the 120mm is. Soviets don't have reduced MP income at all while OKW has reduced fuel income.

You can easily get multiple 120's, you can almost never get multiple Stuka's.
28 Apr 2015, 21:21 PM
#189
avatar of Bulgakov

Posts: 987

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2015, 07:35 AMKatitof


I'll blame that mistake on very late hour last night(and for someone who actually got a master degree from physics... well, I shall not forget that mistake! :foreveralone: still that was like a decade ago so...) :)
Anyway, vast majority people over 16 know what I had on mind and probably figured it out correctly :)


The difference between weight and mass is so rudimentary that I call BS on your claims to have a masters in Physics. There's no night late enough for that mistake.

I also call BS on your claims of you being able to push a car at running speed. Video or admit you're lying.


Back to post:
Even if it was possible to push that much weight at sprint speed (it aint), that doesn't mean the speed shouldn't be altered to improve gameplay. Other non-realistic events happen in game such as armour taking several shots to kill, never dying in one. This unrealism is essential to the gameplay.


The 120mm mortar causes too many insta-squad wipes. It can be called in instantly (without waiting for it to be built) and has a higher range - these two abilities alone justify its high cost. On top of that is its survivability and squad-wipe-ability.


Early-game squad-wipers do not make for fun gameplay.
28 Apr 2015, 21:37 PM
#191
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



The difference between weight and mass is so rudimentary that I call BS on your claims to have a masters in Physics. There's no night late enough for that mistake.

Medicine physics to be accurate. Don't underestimate the power of late hour, fatigue and foreign language combined. You don't have to believe me and I'm certainly not scanning the diploma for you, not like it have any relevance to anything.

I also call BS on your claims of you being able to push a car at running speed. Video or admit you're lying.

Where actually did I claimed it was running speed again?

Because all I can see in my previous post is that wheels make heavy objects move with much less force applied then the same objects without the wheels.

Whatever you've studied, it certainly wasn't about literature, otherwise you wouldn't have so much trouble with reading comprehension.

Back to post:
Even if it was possible to push that much weight at sprint speed (it aint), that doesn't mean the speed shouldn't be altered to improve gameplay. Other non-realistic events happen in game such as armour taking several shots to kill, never dying in one. This unrealism is essential to the gameplay.

Every single infantry unit moves at the same speed.
AT guns are the only difference, but they aren't really an infantry squad nor vehicle, mechanically they are middle ground and therefore make sense for them to move at different speed.

Besides, you're going on the realism ground here, therefore start to talk bullshit in relation to that arcade RTS ww2 game which CoH2 is.

Early-game squad-wipers do not make for fun gameplay.

Nerf precision strike called rifle nade then?
29 Apr 2015, 05:42 AM
#192
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1



The stuka is the most expensive artillery piece in the game, duh it's going to be good. The luchs also is fairly easy to counter for either faciton.


Expensive doesn't mean it should oneshot multiple squads.

400 hitpoints tank, compared to T70 it's not easy to counter.
29 Apr 2015, 05:42 AM
#193
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1

29 Apr 2015, 06:04 AM
#194
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Apr 2015, 05:42 AMNEVEC


Expensive doesn't mean it should oneshot multiple squads.

400 hitpoints tank, compared to T70 it's not easy to counter.


As in it takes 1 extra shot. And the stuka isn't for countering standard mobile infantry, it's for building clearance and killing enemy support weapons teams.

If you try to use a stuka versus a skilled player your going to be doing a whole lot of nothing because the blasts are easy to avoid due to the very distinct firing sound combined with the travel time of the rockets, something that isn't possible with the 120.

29 Apr 2015, 06:06 AM
#195
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Apr 2015, 21:02 PMArclyte




lol you people are delusional


I don't get what you mean. Is it OK to have a very very expensive unit which is an auto win? I'm not talking about 120 or Stuka I'm just saying it's NOT a legit argument to say "It's expensive so it should fuck you up".


jump backJump back to quoted post29 Apr 2015, 05:42 AMNEVEC


Expensive doesn't mean it should oneshot multiple squads.

400 hitpoints tank, compared to T70 it's not easy to counter.


This is not about Stuka, but I agree that simply because Stuka is very expensive and has minimal AT capabilities it should not perform like this. But it has nothing to do with 120.

PS: Please stop with this Tit for tat attitude. "Oh we have 120 what about Stuka Oh you have IS2 we have... blah blah blah." Although a units performance is tied to the meta, faction design, play style and many other factors, "comparing units" isn't helping in discussions (There are exceptions though). Specially when you compare 120mm to Stuka.
29 Apr 2015, 08:04 AM
#196
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



The stuka is the most expensive artillery piece in the game, duh it's going to be good. The luchs also is fairly easy to counter for either faciton.


Double standards detected.

So, you count teching costs only when it's in your favour?
If you are counting it for KT, for example, count it for all units. And if you do, you will see that Katy is more expensive.
29 Apr 2015, 09:59 AM
#197
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1



As in it takes 1 extra shot



Yes it takes extra shot what makes huge difference, especially when we talking about slow firing zis.

Oh and this unit cost 50 fuel instead of 70.
29 Apr 2015, 10:22 AM
#198
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4

open the thread.
flip to the back, spy discussions pertaining to physics degrees, wheels and pushing cars???



i can't do it.
29 Apr 2015, 11:38 AM
#199
avatar of Bulgakov

Posts: 987

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Apr 2015, 21:37 PMKatitof



Where actually did I claimed it was running speed again?

Because all I can see in my previous post is that wheels make heavy objects move with much less force applied then the same objects without the wheels.

Whatever you've studied, it certainly wasn't about literature, otherwise you wouldn't have so much trouble with reading comprehension.



Your reply about pushing a heavy wheeled object was in response to the topic on 120mm mortar. Someone said it moves too quickly when running away, you said it's ok that it moves quickly because it has wheels.

I read just fine. The comprehension issue is yours.



As for your comment on rifle grenades - I agree with you. They shouldn't be wiping squads so easily.
29 Apr 2015, 17:11 PM
#200
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
If you people literally want riflenades to do like 40 damage and kill no man at all (because thats the sentiment I'm getting here) then they are not worth 30 munitions at all. To make up for your lack of micro cost should be dropped to 15 munitions if they will onlky be able to kill 1 man max. 30 munitions for 20-25 mp bleed is shit and will make this ability worthless.
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