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Sturm pioneers are overpriced

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19 Mar 2015, 17:58 PM
#161
avatar of Chiro
Donator 11

Posts: 90

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2015, 17:51 PMVuther

10 munitions to guarantee the enemy's not using the building against most buildings after you grenade it is overkill? I certainly don't go "My 30/45 munitions grenade didn't kill off the entire squad inside or level the building, good thing the venture wasn't a waste" while playing the other factions.

Compare to the Molotov, which is a short-ranged piece of trash frequently relying on the squad also spend 10 munitions on Oorah! with a long animation that depends RNG or the enemy totally not noticing it was thrown for much longer than the other grenades which renders it basically only especially useful against buildings...and it costs 5 more munitions.



i meant that blowing the whole building into space just to get rid of some guys inside is overkill
i'm not a native english speaker so i might have been a bit confusing

infiltration nades are awesome
19 Mar 2015, 18:08 PM
#162
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13674 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2015, 17:22 PMRemi


None of those are early game and building a stuka is suicide, flamers on Sturms is also historical

3-5 min is not early game for you? Aren't you confusing early game with loading screen here?
Fast stuka arrives at 8-9.
19 Mar 2015, 18:09 PM
#163
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2015, 18:08 PMKatitof

3-5 min is not early game for you? Aren't you confusing early game with loading screen here?
Fast stuka arrives at 8-9.


You have to convert muni to fuel which means you won't have any AT, at all. So if they get a fast sherman your fucked.

Conversion is really only viable with Ostheer support.
19 Mar 2015, 18:31 PM
#164
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



Uh, there are only 2 heavy TD's in the game, only 3 heavy tanks in the game, SP's aren't engineers and cost far more, Volks are the worst starting infantry in the game...

All these things cost more than what you are comparing them to, again:

More expensive units are better then less expensive units; more at 11.


Do you rememeber when 3weeks ago you said to me that SP are not Engis and then week ago you named them yourself as engis? :huhsign:

So what if there are 2 or 3 units like that? All belong to OKW. It does not matter how many of them are in game.

Worst starting inf which turns into bullet immue tank hunters.

Cost does not matters.
It's about design where OKW has best of the best.
Panther is a way more expensive than T34, yet it arrives in very smiliar time to T34.
KT is the most expensive tool yet I can hit the field around 15-17min in 4v4 and still minutes before IS2 in 2v2.
19 Mar 2015, 18:36 PM
#165
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13674 | Subs: 7



You have to convert muni to fuel which means you won't have any AT, at all. So if they get a fast sherman your fucked.

Conversion is really only viable with Ostheer support.


And what do you need that AT for in 5th minute that AA HT can't destroy in single burst?
By the time USF AA HT arrives you can have puma or shreck.
20 Mar 2015, 01:25 AM
#166
avatar of Remi

Posts: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2015, 18:08 PMKatitof

3-5 min is not early game for you? Aren't you confusing early game with loading screen here?
Fast stuka arrives at 8-9.


Flak HT, infiltration grenades do not come out at 3mins. ISG is not worth building as it's not competitive. Stuka is not an option in 1vs1.
20 Mar 2015, 07:22 AM
#167
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1



That's why it should be cheaper instead of making it similar to 120mm.


Best AI inf - Obers. - Fallschirmjagers
best AT inf - Volks. - OST Pzgrenadiers
Best engi - SP. - Agree
Best mobile arty - Stuka. - Agree
Best light tank - T70 or Luchs. - T70
Best teching - OKW. - Has not such a big impact because OKW cannot build but a very small number of vehicles
Best heavy tank - KT - Agree
Best heavy TD - JT - Agree
and on..
and on..

Soviets are better in terms of assault guns and arty.


If you count the call-ins efficiency, they are best at that too. Arguable, Maxim is the most usefull hmg in game.
20 Mar 2015, 07:30 AM
#168
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Mar 2015, 07:22 AMJohnnyB


If you count the call-ins efficiency, they are best at that too. Arguable, Maxim is the most usefull hmg in game.


Volks are far cheaper to reinforce, OKW barely needs munitions for other things and Volks are a 5 man squad instead of 4. They also get vet up to gain a lot of survivability and don't lose all their anti-infantry power after being upgraded.

Also Luchs is far superior to T-70 in just about every way.
20 Mar 2015, 07:45 AM
#169
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561



Volks are far cheaper to reinforce, OKW barely needs munitions for other things and Volks are a 5 man squad instead of 4. They also get vet up to gain a lot of survivability and don't lose all their anti-infantry power after being upgraded.

Also Luchs is far superior to T-70 in just about every way.
I agree pgrens might be an all around better unit, but for cost and long term effectiveness volks are better.
20 Mar 2015, 08:28 AM
#170
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1



Volks are far cheaper to reinforce, OKW barely needs munitions for other things and Volks are a 5 man squad instead of 4. They also get vet up to gain a lot of survivability and don't lose all their anti-infantry power after being upgraded.

Also Luchs is far superior to T-70 in just about every way.


Let's put it this way: whom you would trust to fight 1 on 1 with a T34? An upgraded volks squad or an upgraded pzgren squad? T34 will probably kill them most of the time but who will have the better chance to kill T34 instead (not to live longer)?
Survivability is one thing and applies to all engagements, the question here was who is the most potent AT infantry squad?
Related to Luchs I think different. Don't get me wrong, I believe Luchs is a verry potent light tank and perform its role just as good as T70 is doing it, but in a direct confrontation who will win most of the times? So since their performances as light tanks are quite similar, the only thing that make the difference is how they are performing one against the other. T70 being superior at this chapter, wins.
20 Mar 2015, 08:41 AM
#171
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Mar 2015, 08:28 AMJohnnyB


Let's put it this way: whom you would trust to fight 1 on 1 with a T34? An upgraded volks squad or an upgraded pzgren squad? T34 will probably kill them most of the time but who will have the better chance to kill T34 instead (not to live longer)?
Survivability is one thing and applies to all engagements, the question here was who is the most potent AT infantry squad?
Related to Luchs I think different. Don't get me wrong, I believe Luchs is a verry potent light tank and perform its role just as good as T70 is doing it, but in a direct confrontation who will win most of the times? So since their performances as light tanks are quite similar, the only thing that make the difference is how they are performing one against the other. T70 being superior at this chapter, wins.


Of course PzGrens can deal higher damage but on the other hand Volks have insane veterancy which means that in late game, they can easily get into middle of the battle, cause they are immue to small fire,, fire volley and reatreat.

PzGrens will die to easily in such situation so in fact it's hard to say which unit is better.

T70 will win 1v1 with Luch, has great Recon mode but it's nowhere near to Luchs in terms of killing infantry. Luchs can melt infantry better than any other vehicle in game.

I wonder why OST and OKW have best units in game. I mean, I would sacrafice best MG (Maxim) for best AI infantry. In terms of design it should be balanced somehow but it's not

#ProAxisDesign :guyokay:
I did not know Axis won the War :snfPeter:

It was quite good until OKW.
nee
20 Mar 2015, 08:53 AM
#172
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216

THey seem OK with their price, but I always had a problem with the insanely long reinforcement times.
20 Mar 2015, 09:10 AM
#173
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Mar 2015, 08:28 AMJohnnyB


Let's put it this way: whom you would trust to fight 1 on 1 with a T34? An upgraded volks squad or an upgraded pzgren squad? T34 will probably kill them most of the time but who will have the better chance to kill T34 instead (not to live longer)?
Survivability is one thing and applies to all engagements, the question here was who is the most potent AT infantry squad?
Related to Luchs I think different. Don't get me wrong, I believe Luchs is a verry potent light tank and perform its role just as good as T70 is doing it, but in a direct confrontation who will win most of the times? So since their performances as light tanks are quite similar, the only thing that make the difference is how they are performing one against the other. T70 being superior at this chapter, wins.


Survivability is directly a factor for anti-tank effectiveness as it dictates how long you'll be around to be dealing your damage. Neither squad will defeat a T-34 on their own except under extreme circumstances so that is irrelevant. Volks are the better anti-tank squad for more reasons than one.
20 Mar 2015, 09:21 AM
#174
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1



Of course PzGrens can deal higher damage but on the other hand Volks have insane veterancy which means that in late game, they can easily get into middle of the battle, cause they are immue to small fire,, fire volley and reatreat.

PzGrens will die to easily in such situation so in fact it's hard to say which unit is better.

T70 will win 1v1 with Luch, has great Recon mode but it's nowhere near to Luchs in terms of killing infantry. Luchs can melt infantry better than any other vehicle in game.

I wonder why OST and OKW have best units in game. I mean, I would sacrafice best MG (Maxim) for best AI infantry. In terms of design it should be balanced somehow but it's not

#ProAxisDesign :guyokay:
I did not know Axis won the War :snfPeter:

It was quite good until OKW.


Listen man, maybe OKW has the best units in game (not all of them, but a good part) and there is a reason for that, I won't say it again, everybody knows why but agrees with it more or less.
Claiming that Ostheer has also the best units in game is an exagerration because Ostheer currently has some of the shittiest units in game, and a few of okish/good units.
Pro Axis Design - I dunno about that, I think Relic wanted to close to reality as much as they could without damaging balance to much.
Axis did not won the war, when you all will understand that quality means nothing vs quantity. It's simple, look at the number of units/troops/divisions or whatever Axis had in WW2 and what Allied had. Axis economy/production/resources could not even dream to be even close to what Allied had, so it didn't matter that most of Axis vehicles, planes or whatever were better than their counterparts.
This answers to your question.

If the game was to take reality into consideration, Tiger tank would snipe T34 from out of reach, but you would be able to build t34s with 150 mp and 20 fuel. KT would pulverise any allied armor but while you would bring one KT, allied player would bring 30 tanks. But what would be the point of such a game?

No, everybody wants balance because I dare to believe that everyone likes to deserve their wins. Only that "balance" means different things for people.
20 Mar 2015, 09:23 AM
#175
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Mar 2015, 09:21 AMJohnnyB


Listen man, maybe OKW has the best units in game (not all of them, but a good part) and there is a reason for that, I won't say it again, everybody knows why but agrees with it more or less.
Claiming that Ostheer has also the best units in game is an exagerration because Ostheer currently has some of the shittiest units in game, and a few of okish/good units.
Pro Axis Design - I dunno about that, I think Relic wanted to close to reality as much as they could without damaging balance to much.
Axis did not won the war, when you all will understand that quality means nothing vs quantity. It's simple, look at the number of units/troops/divisions or whatever Axis had in WW2 and what Allied had. Axis economy/production/resources could not even dream to be even close to what Allied had, so it didn't matter than most of Axis vehicles, planes or whatever were better than their counterparts.
There answers your question.

If the game was to take reality into consideration, Tiger tank would snipe T34 from out of reach, but you would be able to build t34s with 150 mp and 20 fuel. KT would pulverise any allied armor but while you would bring one KT, allied player would bring 30 tanks. But would be the point of such a game?

No, everybody wants balance because I dear to believe that everyone likes to deserve their wins. Only that "balance" means different things for people.


There is an account of a T-34/85 ambushing three King Tigers and destroying them all. Real life was nothing like CoH2, there were too many variables.
20 Mar 2015, 09:56 AM
#176
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13674 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Mar 2015, 08:28 AMJohnnyB


Related to Luchs I think different. Don't get me wrong, I believe Luchs is a verry potent light tank and perform its role just as good as T70 is doing it, but in a direct confrontation who will win most of the times? So since their performances as light tanks are quite similar, the only thing that make the difference is how they are performing one against the other. T70 being superior at this chapter, wins.

You do not get lights to fight each other, Stuart is the only light tank somewhat designed to fight armor, two others are almost exclusively AI with added benefit of being able to dmg light armor.
You get them to fight infantry and light armor, this is what Luchs does incomparably better.
Also, luchs HP alone makes it best light tank by default by MILES.

Comparing light tanks in a direct combat makes as much sense as comparing mortars in direct combat-they do fight sometimes, but just because soviet one can precision strike german one it does not make it better then german one even in the slightest.
20 Mar 2015, 10:19 AM
#177
avatar of Sierra

Posts: 432

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Mar 2015, 13:59 PMJaigen
I would say the assault engineer are far better then the SP's not in raw firepower or durability but utility.The ability to have a flamethrower is a tremendous boon on certain maps. and makes the whole sp's are better at midrange a bit dubious.

And of course demo charges. i cannot count how many games i have won because of demo charges.


Sturmpioneers aren't even really better at mid range as they don't hit their damage dealing potential until range-3. Remember they had their range nerfed where before they performed similar to panzergrenadiers but people complained about them.

They used to be able to deal their max damage with range-8 or less, but they were nerfed down to range-3 while all Allied SMG squads had their damage dealing range buffed up to range-10!

It's in the patch notes, I cannot make this stuff up. Essentially Allied SMG squads will be dealing their max damage at 7 different range levels sooner than the Sturmpioneer will be able to.


Remember when Soviets complained that the Shocktroopers couldn't deal any damage outside of hugging range? That's what it's like to use Sturmpioneers now. It's why I went back to Ostheer and have been enjoying CAS doctrine. At least Panzergrens and Grenadiers are reliable enough to get the job done and having 2x 4% increased rate of fire bulletins for the MG-42 actually make it a suppressing powerhouse.
20 Mar 2015, 10:30 AM
#178
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Mar 2015, 10:19 AMSierra


Sturmpioneers aren't even really better at mid range as they don't hit their damage dealing potential until range-3. Remember they had their range nerfed where before they performed similar to panzergrenadiers but people complained about them.

They used to be able to deal their max damage with range-8 or less, but they were nerfed down to range-3 while all Allied SMG squads had their damage dealing range buffed up to range-10!

It's in the patch notes, I cannot make this stuff up. Essentially Allied SMG squads will be dealing their max damage at 7 different range levels sooner than the Sturmpioneer will be able to.


Remember when Soviets complained that the Shocktroopers couldn't deal any damage outside of hugging range? That's what it's like to use Sturmpioneers now. It's why I went back to Ostheer and have been enjoying CAS doctrine. At least Panzergrens and Grenadiers are reliable enough to get the job done and having 2x 4% increased rate of fire bulletins for the MG-42 actually make it a suppressing powerhouse.


Please, do me a favour and plug out keyboard.

I already proved that SP will win agasint AE at any range.
20 Mar 2015, 12:07 PM
#179
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130



Please, do me a favour and plug out keyboard.

I already proved that SP will win agasint AE at any range.



Do yourself a favour and get lost. In general the allies are better at short range engagements then the axis who favour long range battles. because of that the assault engineers are more viable then sp's. And he is right you know. counter his arguments or piss of.
20 Mar 2015, 12:17 PM
#180
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13674 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Mar 2015, 12:07 PMJaigen



Do yourself a favour and get lost. In general the allies are better at short range engagements then the axis who favour long range battles. because of that the assault engineers are more viable then sp's. And he is right you know. counter his arguments or piss of.


There is no need to counter his 'argument' because his argument is an utter bullshit which comes from him(or you as you back him up on it) not having the slightest clue what DPS curves are and how to actually read them.

Shocks(or SMG units in general) do NO damage outside of their effective range.
Assault rifle units(which SPs are) still do damage outside of their close range, it drops faster then that of a rifles, but it is INCOMPARABLY HIGHER then that of SMG units on pretty much ALL ranges above 10.

Arguing that assault engies are better then sturmpios because their dmg dropoff starts bit later is completely out of place argument that goes against the stats and common sense, because by the time AEs get in effective range, SPs can already drop a model or deal heavy damage, but we're already used to that coming from you or sierra.
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