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Remove Shreck from Volks

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21 Feb 2015, 00:30 AM
#521
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

even vanilla rifles have a lot of AI power compared to vet5 volks, baring nades. i hope no one is disputing that rifles are better AI than volks. the problem is that volks are very strong economically and AT wise and have amazing synergy with obers. and they do have that nade, which is a bit difficult to use (nades in general, not the volks nade specifically) but with it they can wipe a full health, vet 3 shock squad so it must be considered. the other important thing about the grenade is it keeps strong AI power on them, even with the the schreck.
21 Feb 2015, 01:18 AM
#522
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1

even vanilla rifles have a lot of AI power compared to vet5 volks, baring nades. i hope no one is disputing that rifles are better AI than volks. the problem is that volks are very strong economically and AT wise and have amazing synergy with obers. and they do have that nade, which is a bit difficult to use (nades in general, not the volks nade specifically) but with it they can wipe a full health, vet 3 shock squad so it must be considered. the other important thing about the grenade is it keeps strong AI power on them, even with the the schreck.


?????????????

Do you know what the Vet bonuses are?
21 Feb 2015, 01:36 AM
#523
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

yes. and rifles are a lot stronger than volks. a mid game rifle blob has no trouble competing with a mid game volks blob, shcrecks or not. it's when you combine the durability of volks with schrecks to deny tanks and obers to deny infantry that rifles have problems. rifles just flat role volks early game, it's only with vet (and nades) that volks can do anything to rifles. of course, this is also greatly alleviated by spios and kubels.

edit: and now i'm involved in this thread that has way past run its course... arg... i avoided it for nearly 500 posts.
21 Feb 2015, 02:01 AM
#524
avatar of The Silver Sage

Posts: 183

yes. and rifles are a lot stronger than volks. a mid game rifle blob has no trouble competing with a mid game volks blob, shcrecks or not. it's when you combine the durability of volks with schrecks to deny tanks and obers to deny infantry that rifles have problems. rifles just flat role volks early game, it's only with vet (and nades) that volks can do anything to rifles. of course, this is also greatly alleviated by spios and kubels.

edit: and now i'm involved in this thread that has way past run its course... arg... i avoided it for nearly 500 posts.


Sorry buddy but due to the incoming accuracy received bonuses of vet 5 Volks, they will beat vanilla rifles so don't say contrary to that. Vet 3 rifles vs. vet 5 volks is a different story.

-49% Incoming received accuracy means vanilla rifles/cons find it much harder to hit them at mid-long range given their starting accuracy. Also try getting in close to hit them with vanilla cons who actually have an incoming received accuracy of +9%.
21 Feb 2015, 02:33 AM
#525
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130



Sorry buddy but due to the incoming accuracy received bonuses of vet 5 Volks, they will beat vanilla rifles so don't say contrary to that. Vet 3 rifles vs. vet 5 volks is a different story.

-49% Incoming received accuracy means vanilla rifles/cons find it much harder to hit them at mid-long range given their starting accuracy. Also try getting in close to hit them with vanilla cons who actually have an incoming received accuracy of +9%.


Yeah but i can safely assume that when the volks has vet 5 the rifle squad has vet 3 and has lmg's/bars
21 Feb 2015, 03:03 AM
#526
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2015, 00:22 AMJaigen



This stuff, right here, is a problem. once again you have made statements but do not back it up with any numbers. you do know that rifles have nearly twice the dps at short range around 70% at mid range? and yet they only cost 5 mp more per man. so the vet of the usf is far more powerful because they are applied to a significantly cost effective unit. i would say rifles along with grens and fusiliers. are the cost effective infantry. volks and scripts are tied but scripts have more utility with molotovs oorhah and at nades.

So no you are wrong about volks and their vet 5. and i grantee you that a riflesquad at vet 3 will tear a vet 5 volks apart.


Riflemen
Unlocks AT Rifle grenade
-23% received accuracy -20% weapon cooldown
+30% accuracy -50% ability recharge +25% grenade range

Volksgrenadier
-10% received accuracy
+30% accuracy -20% weapon cooldown
-10% received accuracy Healing when out of combat
+40% sight range +30% accuracy
-29% received accuracy

Total of -39% Received accuracy + healing out of combat and all these others buffs? Play some COH2 and stop defending every Axis unit bc you only win with one army.
21 Feb 2015, 04:09 AM
#527
avatar of Chiro
Donator 11

Posts: 90

This is at range 0 and without bars

vet 0 volks 17/13,6 dps (without schrek/with schrek)
vet 0 rifles 29 dps

vet 5 volks 27,2/21,76 dps + "-20% weapon cooldown"
vet 3 rifles 37,7 + "-20% weapon cooldown"

included matrix doge

vet 5 volks 20,9/16,72 dps + "-20% weapon cooldown"
vet 3 rifles 19,2 dps + "-20% weapon cooldown" ( not included bar or lmg!!!)


at range 25

vet 0 volks 8,8/7 dps
vet 0 rifles 10,2 dps

vet 5 volks 14,1/11,3 dps + "-20% weapon cooldown"
vet 3 rifles 13,26 dps + "-20% weapon cooldown"

with matrix dodge

vet 5 volks 10,9/ 8,7 dps + "-20% weapon cooldown"
vet 3 rifles 6,8 dps + "-20% weapon cooldown"

so without bar ( is bar even better at range 25 than rifle??) volks even with schrek out-scale rifles O.o (didn't knew that)


all stats from coh2 ( if i did a mistake plz tell me it's 5am ...)
21 Feb 2015, 09:33 AM
#528
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2015, 02:33 AMJaigen

Yeah but i can safely assume that when the volks has vet 5 the rifle squad has vet 3 and has lmg's/bars


Just stop saying bullshit about how BARs are OP.
For 120 muni, for double bar, all you get is higher CQ dps, from ~30 to ~38 and long range from ~7,5 to ~10. How it is OP for 120 muni?
Double BAR is a huge waste of ammo.
21 Feb 2015, 10:13 AM
#529
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779



Just stop saying bullshit about how BARs are OP.
For 120 muni, for double bar, all you get is higher CQ dps, from ~30 to ~38 and long range from ~7,5 to ~10. How it is OP for 120 muni?
Double BAR is a huge waste of ammo.


I suggest you guys just stop theory crafting with those bullshit numbers, play the game and get better, get into top 50s and tell us again HOW OP is Volks. :foreveralone:

At least in high level, vet 5 Volks vet can't really save themselves from getting one shot squad wiped in those stupid way, nor they can hold the line like elite infantry.

There is no more COH1 uberarmor vet 3 KCH, Terminators vet 3 Rifles, rambo vet 3 G43 PG anymore.
21 Feb 2015, 10:57 AM
#530
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Yeah but there's Vet 5 Obers that can solo armoured cars, given enough time :snfPeter:
21 Feb 2015, 11:24 AM
#531
avatar of Specialka

Posts: 144

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2015, 10:13 AMPorygon


I suggest you guys just stop theory crafting with those bullshit numbers, play the game and get better, get into top 50s and tell us again HOW OP is Volks. :foreveralone:

At least in high level, vet 5 Volks vet can't really save themselves from getting one shot squad wiped in those stupid way, nor they can hold the line like elite infantry.

There is no more COH1 uberarmor vet 3 KCH, Terminators vet 3 Rifles, rambo vet 3 G43 PG anymore.


Well I was for a time top 50 USF in 2v2 and 4v4. Does that count enough for you?
21 Feb 2015, 11:29 AM
#532
avatar of pussyking
Donator 11

Posts: 551

even vanilla rifles have a lot of AI power compared to vet5 volks, baring nades. i hope no one is disputing that rifles are better AI than volks. the problem is that volks are very strong economically and AT wise and have amazing synergy with obers. and they do have that nade, which is a bit difficult to use (nades in general, not the volks nade specifically) but with it they can wipe a full health, vet 3 shock squad so it must be considered. the other important thing about the grenade is it keeps strong AI power on them, even with the the schreck.


Not until volks hit vet 5 and become bulletproof.

Volks get vet very fast becouse of shreks shooting at tanks.
21 Feb 2015, 11:38 AM
#533
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779



Well I was for a time top 50 USF in 2v2 and 4v4. Does that count enough for you?


Team games are for casual, there is no balance :foreveralone:
21 Feb 2015, 11:45 AM
#534
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130



Just stop saying bullshit about how BARs are OP.
For 120 muni, for double bar, all you get is higher CQ dps, from ~30 to ~38 and long range from ~7,5 to ~10. How it is OP for 120 muni?
Double BAR is a huge waste of ammo.


I never said bars are op but they do help. Also i doubt your dps numbers are correct as a single bar does 12 dps compared to a garands 6. Second part you have to know that bars fire in bursts. that means at point blank range you usually have a model drop if a bar fires at that range making it more useful then the static dps of the garand.
21 Feb 2015, 11:46 AM
#535
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130



Well I was for a time top 50 USF in 2v2 and 4v4. Does that count enough for you?


I hate to say it but no. 2vs2 players and beyond are usually scrubs compared to top 1vs1 players.
21 Feb 2015, 11:47 AM
#536
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2015, 11:45 AMJaigen


I never said bars are op but they do help. Also i doubt your dps numbers are correct as a single bar does 12 dps compared to a garands 6. Second part you have to know that bars fire in bursts. that means at point blank range you usually have a model drop if a bar fires at that range making it more useful then the static dps of the garand.


12 dps vs 8dps for 60 muni. Is it worth? I dont think so.
21 Feb 2015, 11:48 AM
#537
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130



Riflemen
Unlocks AT Rifle grenade
-23% received accuracy -20% weapon cooldown
+30% accuracy -50% ability recharge +25% grenade range

Volksgrenadier
-10% received accuracy
+30% accuracy -20% weapon cooldown
-10% received accuracy Healing when out of combat
+40% sight range +30% accuracy
-29% received accuracy

Total of -39% Received accuracy + healing out of combat and all these others buffs? Play some COH2 and stop defending every Axis unit bc you only win with one army.


Will you plz top posting shit mate. since chiro already did my work for me i suggest you drop it.
21 Feb 2015, 11:49 AM
#538
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130



12 dps vs 8dps for 60 muni. Is it worth? I dont think so.


Scrubby players usually do. also the dps of the rifles is 6 at short range not 8.
21 Feb 2015, 11:53 AM
#539
avatar of Specialka

Posts: 144

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2015, 11:46 AMJaigen


I hate to say it but no. 2vs2 players and beyond are usually scrubs compared to top 1vs1 players.


In 3v3+ maybe, but on 2v2, you have to work with another ppl you do not know, and you have far more to take into account than in 1v1.
21 Feb 2015, 12:18 PM
#540
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2015, 10:13 AMPorygon


I suggest you guys just stop theory crafting with those bullshit numbers, play the game and get better, get into top 50s and tell us again HOW OP is Volks. :foreveralone:

At least in high level, vet 5 Volks vet can't really save themselves from getting one shot squad wiped in those stupid way, nor they can hold the line like elite infantry.

There is no more COH1 uberarmor vet 3 KCH, Terminators vet 3 Rifles, rambo vet 3 G43 PG anymore.



And get into the top 20, play againts OKW top 10 or so, and then see that volksgrenadier blobbing indeed is a problem.
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