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US paratroopers

26 Apr 2024, 01:28 AM
#1
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 378

US paratroopers m1 carbine fires like a bolt action rifle. The carbines should be reworked to have a high fire rate and dps curve changed to be a better close to mid range option.
26 Apr 2024, 05:59 AM
#2
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17908 | Subs: 8

So, exactly what they are now?
Rate of fire depends on range as well, closer they shoot faster.
26 Apr 2024, 08:21 AM
#3
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1330

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2024, 05:59 AMKatitof
So, exactly what they are now?
Rate of fire depends on range as well, closer they shoot faster.


I see what OP is talking about. At close range the carbines put out 33 RPM where a standard panzergren K98 puts out 27 RPM.

Once you get to mid and long range, the carbines have a much higher RPM than bolt actions.

Still, the DPS curve is basically just that of a bolt action.

EDIT: Oops. I didn't realize DAKzergren K98 is such an outlier... Grenadier K98 close RPM is 19.
26 Apr 2024, 08:37 AM
#4
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 378

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2024, 05:59 AMKatitof
So, exactly what they are now?
Rate of fire depends on range as well, closer they shoot faster.


Maybe do a little research before you spoutbs.

https://coh3stats.com/explorer/dps

The m1 carbine currently has higher dps than the garand at Max range, and lower than point blank range.

US paras should perform like DAK panzergrens, high dps close and worse far than garand. This way they're not just a worse rifleman with higher hp.

26 Apr 2024, 08:54 AM
#5
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 378

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2024, 05:59 AMKatitof
So, exactly what they are now?
Rate of fire depends on range as well, closer they shoot faster.

Maybe do a little research before you spout bs.

https://coh3stats.com/explorer/dps

The m1 carbine currently has higher dps than the garand at Max range, and lower than point blank range.

US paras should perform like DAK panzergrens, high dps close and worse far than garand. This way they're not just a worse rifleman with higher hp.

26 Apr 2024, 14:55 PM
#6
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 953

Paratroopers are meant to be used at mid-long range (esp with rdy-to-upgrade M1919A6s). Getting close is not recommended, especially with how much CQC stuff is out there. Idk if you're used to them in COH2 with Thompsons but they're a different unit in COH3.

Rangers exist for all your close-mid needs.
27 Apr 2024, 01:14 AM
#7
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 378

Paratroopers are meant to be used at mid-long range (esp with rdy-to-upgrade M1919A6s). Getting close is not recommended, especially with how much CQC stuff is out there. Idk if you're used to them in COH2 with Thompsons but they're a different unit in COH3.

Rangers exist for all your close-mid needs.


I'm well aware of their current role. I think it makes no sense.

They fill the same role as SSF. I feel like they should be a stronger close range unit, it makes sense due to them having the m1 carbine.
27 Apr 2024, 07:42 AM
#8
avatar of OKSpitfire

Posts: 287

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2024, 01:14 AMNaOCl


I'm well aware of their current role. I think it makes no sense.

They fill the same role as SSF. I feel like they should be a stronger close range unit, it makes sense due to them having the m1 carbine.


Well, you may end up waiting a long time for that particular change.
27 Apr 2024, 08:30 AM
#9
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17908 | Subs: 8



I see what OP is talking about. At close range the carbines put out 33 RPM where a standard panzergren K98 puts out 27 RPM.

Once you get to mid and long range, the carbines have a much higher RPM than bolt actions.

Still, the DPS curve is basically just that of a bolt action.

EDIT: Oops. I didn't realize DAKzergren K98 is such an outlier... Grenadier K98 close RPM is 19.

DAK PGs also have 75% moving accuracy, just like any other mid-close range rifle unit in game.
They still lose to paras and rifles badly.

That being said, in CoH3 paras are NOT elite infantry, they are (not so much)later arriving mainline variant oriented at longer range combat(LMGs) contrary to rifles, and without any upgrades they can be used like rifles and have similar performance.

As already stated, if you feel you need CQC troops, get rifle BARs or rangers, paras are not CQC elites in this game.
27 Apr 2024, 10:20 AM
#10
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1330

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2024, 08:30 AMKatitof

DAK PGs also have 75% moving accuracy, just like any other mid-close range rifle unit in game.
They still lose to paras and rifles badly.


Yeah... it wasn't an argument about performance. I was just talking about how fast they fire their rifles. For flavor's sake, at least, I feel like it doesn't make much sense that the difference between paratroopers and panzergrenadiers is 6 rounds per minute at spitting range lol. Surely there's a way to decrease rounds per minute and increase accuracy, ending up with the same DPS. But whatever.
27 Apr 2024, 11:32 AM
#11
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17908 | Subs: 8



Yeah... it wasn't an argument about performance. I was just talking about how fast they fire their rifles. For flavor's sake, at least, I feel like it doesn't make much sense that the difference between paratroopers and panzergrenadiers is 6 rounds per minute at spitting range lol. Surely there's a way to decrease rounds per minute and increase accuracy, ending up with the same DPS. But whatever.

Makes perfect sense really.

Rifles need to be aimed, you don't just mash trigger because gun allows you to.

Carbines and garands aren't really all that different in CoH games.
27 Apr 2024, 17:50 PM
#12
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1330

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2024, 11:32 AMKatitof

Makes perfect sense really.

Rifles need to be aimed, you don't just mash trigger because gun allows you to.

Carbines and garands aren't really all that different in CoH games.


Aiming is fairly intuitive at the distance which this game considers "close range".. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that when you're 5 meters away from someone, fine aim is way less important than being the first one to fire a shot (and keep firing until the other person can't). That's where the whole "semi-automatic" thing starts to shine.

Now, I didn't come here to have a discussion on balance. I was just agreeing with the OP (for flavor's sake, at the very least) that carbines and bolt actions having a comparable RPM at close range is kind of silly. Even if DAK panzergrens are supposed to be some kind of Über-elite supersoldaten hopped up on panzershokolade, they still have to contend with the fact that the magazines on their K98's are three times smaller than that of the M1, and yet again, they have to manually cycle the action after every shot. And you're telling me on top of all that, they have to really carefully pick out all their shots for some reason? Either the DAK panzergrens are working their guns like madmen and not aiming (so that thir rate of fire is even remotely close to that of the M1), or they're taking their time and aiming while the paratroopers are languidly firing their carbines like they're just having a fun day at the range. Either way it's silly.

So no, I very much disagree that it makes "perfect sense". What would make sense is if the panzergrens fired their rifles slower at close range. Easy peasy. Whatever you have to do to make the DPS the same as before, do it. Again, I'm just looking at this from an aesthetics standpoint; it does not make sense that in close quarters combat, the paratroopers and panzergrens are firing their rifles at each other at a comparable speed. It just doesn't.

And just to sidetrack on terms of balance, OP is absolutely right that the M1 Carbine has the DPS curve of a bolt action. It's almost identical to the DAK's K98.
7 May 2024, 08:43 AM
#13
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 378


And just to sidetrack on terms of balance, OP is absolutely right that the M1 Carbine has the DPS curve of a bolt action. It's almost identical to the DAK's K98.


This is exactly what I mean. Why even have M1 carbines in the game if they're just a worse M1 garand. M1 carbine should be the USF MP-44 equivalent, then it would have a good role and good flavour.

Then give paras a munition costing m2 carbine upgrade, sure there weren't many made, but neither were many FG42s made and every single fallschirmjäger has one.

I don't blame Katitof for thinking it makes perfect sense, he very clearly has no familiarity with firearms whatsoever.
7 May 2024, 11:17 AM
#14
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17908 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post7 May 2024, 08:43 AMNaOCl


This is exactly what I mean. Why even have M1 carbines in the game if they're just a worse M1 garand. M1 carbine should be the USF MP-44 equivalent, then it would have a good role and good flavour.

Then give paras a munition costing m2 carbine upgrade, sure there weren't many made, but neither were many FG42s made and every single fallschirmjäger has one.

I don't blame Katitof for thinking it makes perfect sense, he very clearly has no familiarity with firearms whatsoever.

Carbines worked like that since forever in CoH.

The only deviation from that was RETs vet1 in CoH2.

You're arguing real life.
I'm arguing reality of the game series.
7 May 2024, 16:49 PM
#15
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1330


Carbines worked like that since forever in CoH...You're arguing real life. I'm arguing reality of the game series.


I just don't personally think that "it's always been like that" is a good argument for something to continue being like that. Say, for example, CoH has always implemented the Bazooka as a weapon that you use against other infantry squads like it's Call of Duty or something, and since it's so effective at anti-infantry, they made it so that it's really bad against vehicles to compensate. Then, since they needed something to perform well against vehicles, they gave the riflemen a grenade slingshot upgrade that they can use against tanks.

So, the game is definitely balanced; the bazooka is a good anti infantry weapon that's bad against tanks to compensate, and then riflemen have a good anti-tank weapon if they need it. It makes sense in the game, and in this hypothetical it's always been that way, since CoH 1 even. Does it make sense though? Does it need to be that way? Not really.

Point of the absurd hypothetical is just to say that just because something is the status quo, it isn't necessarily the best way of doing things.

Although I said I wouldn't come in here to talk balance, I do want to say that I like the idea of the M1 carbines being some kind of MP44 equivalent. Realistically, I think that it would be fine if they just slowed down the RPM of DAK panzergrens' K98s (visual change only). If you do that, then M1 Carbine is more of an outlier compared to the other mainline weapons.

Maybe, just maybe, if there was some kind of M2 Carbine upgrade (like NaOCl mentioned), then the paratroopers would have access to some kind of "fire superiority" type ability that lets them use their M1s to their fullest potential.


Just for comparison;

Rapid firing a K98


Rapid firing an M1 Carbine


7 May 2024, 19:23 PM
#16
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17908 | Subs: 8

Let me rephrase then:
Relic does not want it to be anything other then different Garand as evidenced by it being how it is in 3 different games over 20 years.
8 May 2024, 03:12 AM
#17
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1330

Let me rephrase then:
Relic does not want it to be anything other then different Garand as evidenced by it being how it is in 3 different games over 20 years.


Ok, cool. Relic may not want it, but if the audience wants it, then there's no reason not to advocate for it to be changed. Relic wanted blizzards in automatch, and the playerbase didn't. There are no more blizzards in automatch.

Now that we've established a precedent for Relic changing something after not originally "wanting it" that way, we are left with no reason to snuff out a conversation just because Relic isn't doing it at this very moment.

Glad we got everything worked out.
8 May 2024, 03:47 AM
#18
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 378


Carbines worked like that since forever in CoH.

The only deviation from that was RETs vet1 in CoH2.

You're arguing real life.
I'm arguing reality of the game series.


I'm actually arguing that the game reflect some real life elements.

The m1 carbine being an m1 garand clone pigeon-holes the weapon into a minor variant that is not unique. Changes as proposed by donofsandeigo would make the units far more unique and interesting to use.

DAK 98k is completely different from the Wehr Grenadier 98k, so this is something easily possible for Relic to implement, especially considering the life cycle that CoH3 will have.
9 May 2024, 09:26 AM
#19
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2024, 01:14 AMNaOCl


I'm well aware of their current role. I think it makes no sense.

They fill the same role as SSF. I feel like they should be a stronger close range unit, it makes sense due to them having the m1 carbine.


They are as strong as riflemen close to mid range and then get significantly better long range. Check it for youself here

Their slightly lower dps is ofset by having 10hp more per model. Then weapon upgrade favor riflemen at short range but you need 2xBars to outdps 2xLMG para even at close range.

The only drawback for para is that those LMGs don't fire on the move.

+ para get lock free nade.
9 May 2024, 18:21 PM
#20
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 785

You don't understand, we have to make things unrealistic and retarded because.... just because, okay!??!!

CoH isn't allowed to be consistent or even slightly approach realism where it's possible without even significantly impacting balance because that would ummm... make the game bad!!! or something!!!

What do you mean nobody's buying or playing Company of Heroes anymore? Wtf!
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