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Stupid things in CoH2 that shouldn't be in CoH3.

25 Nov 2022, 06:27 AM
#1
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 884

As we begin the transition to CoH3 I'm going to take a parting shot at some of the things that most annoy me in this game in it's current state that I hope not to see in CoH3:

Short range infantry are mostly useless because the "long range" infantry really aren't that bad close range either. I'm not sure that's 100% a bad thing except for the fact that the Allied factions don't have good long range infantry with the one exception being USF Paratroopers. I would have counted UKF Infantry Sections before they were nerfed to hell.

T0 HMG42s never should have been a thing. Really I don't think any faction should have been deploying HMGs T0 but this one was the worst because it was the best HMG in the game and making it available right off the bat was a hurr-durr move. It's worse now when you combine the superior preformance of Grenadier squads and the Pioneer sight range.

For some reason every other German infantry unit both for OKW and OST had to have a vehicle snare. This wouldn't annoy me if Ailled units had them but basically only Riflemen for USF had them and UKF had none until the Royal Engineer rework. Even doctrinal units didn't have hardly any snare options.

Panzer tactician never should have been a thing. It was perhaps the best example of a "get out of jail-free" card. Annyoing as it was, had it been limited to one or maybe two doctrines it wouldn't be as bad but it's on several and one comes with a Tiger tank. Already heavily armored units don't need that crap. I suppose you could try to make the same argument for the Churchill but that's one unit only and it was extremely slow.

Now for the Allies.

That Soviet 120 mortar is a bunch of crap. There is no reason why a crewed indirect fire weapon like that should be able to retreat with single model.

7 man Conscripts were over the top and were part of the reason Grenadiers were buffed creating problems elsewhere. This was unnecessary, it would have been better to give them a similar upgrade to Grens like a DP28 MG or a 3 SVT rifle upgrade similar to Panzerfusilers.

Lastly just random changes I hated:

I really hated the pop increases for units accross the board. This lead to smaller armies and just reduced the fun game play. This goes for both Axis & Allies.

Brits got overnerfed, basically everyone even admits it. So this leads me to my final thought; I don't know if it's because most players preferred German factions due to their cool looking infantry and cool heavy armor or if it was because there were only 2 German factions vs 3 Allied factions, or if it was because of balance issues in larger 3v3 and 4v4 game modes, but 1v1 Axis factions usually had the advantage and this is especially true with the western allied factions at this stage in the game's life cycle.
18 Dec 2022, 19:11 PM
#2
avatar of DerKuhlmann

Posts: 464

Meanwhile avre rolls in, bounces all shots and instagibs your vet 3 squads or takes 50% of your tiger ace hp while stunning it for 5 sec
And if you kill it, he just makes another 3 mins after.
18 Dec 2022, 20:30 PM
#3
18 Dec 2022, 20:59 PM
#4
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2937 | Subs: 3

Meanwhile avre rolls in, bounces all shots and instagibs your vet 3 squads or takes 50% of your tiger ace hp while stunning it for 5 sec
And if you kill it, he just makes another 3 mins after.


"I just lost my poorly microed Tiger Ace to an AVRE somehow, let me go to the forums and search for a 1 month old thread so I can vent"
18 Dec 2022, 22:14 PM
#5
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1219

Cons DP-28 upgrade huh. You realize that they had to nerf the Brit special weapons car because of how OP cons with an lmg was right?
19 Dec 2022, 11:10 AM
#6
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 782 | Subs: 1

Cons DP-28 upgrade huh. You realize that they had to nerf the Brit special weapons car because of how OP cons with an lmg was right?


very op (extremely niche strategy that doesn't work unless you have arranged teams and puts the ukf player at -120 muni per penal battalion squad member that a sov player makes)


19 Dec 2022, 11:22 AM
#7
avatar of Rosbone

Posts: 2055 | Subs: 2

Coh2. This is the stupid thing that should not be in Coh3.
23 Dec 2022, 16:13 PM
#8
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 560 | Subs: 1

T0 hmgs are fine lol. it makes the game interesting
23 Dec 2022, 18:58 PM
#9
avatar of Rosbone

Posts: 2055 | Subs: 2

The crowd goes silent as Rosbone steps up to the microphone to address the peoples of Coh2 land. Lets take a listen....

The absolute stupidest thing of all in Coh2 that should not be in Coh3..... Rosbone

[cheers]

The crowd likes that one. Rosbone sure knows what the free peoples of Coh2 land wanted to hear and he has not hesitated to say it. I have not seen a crowd this happy since the launch of Coh1. This is an historic moment I shall not forget and will be telling my grand children I was there. I was there.
24 Dec 2022, 01:03 AM
#10
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1219

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2022, 18:58 PMRosbone
The crowd goes silent as Rosbone steps up to the microphone to address the peoples of Coh2 land. Lets take a listen....

The absolute stupidest thing of all in Coh2 that should not be in Coh3..... Rosbone

[cheers]

The crowd likes that one. Rosbone sure knows what the free peoples of Coh2 land wanted to hear and he has not hesitated to say it. I have not seen a crowd this happy since the launch of Coh1. This is an historic moment I shall not forget and will be telling my grand children I was there. I was there.


Among us
26 Dec 2022, 12:54 PM
#11
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 875 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2022, 06:27 AMCODGUY
As we begin the transition to CoH3 I'm going to take a parting shot at some of the things that most annoy me in this game in it's current state that I hope not to see in CoH3:

Short range infantry are mostly useless because the "long range" infantry really aren't that bad close range either. I'm not sure that's 100% a bad thing except for the fact that the Allied factions don't have good long range infantry with the one exception being USF Paratroopers. I would have counted UKF Infantry Sections before they were nerfed to hell.


Lol this is so spot on! It's poorly designed that Obersoldaten that have both bundle grenades and frangibles to annihilate SMG troopers up close such as Rangers, despite having already shredded them on approach. LMG grens are better designed since they can't use rifle grenades up close, but LMG's in general still have pretty high DPS up close. There's very little downside to LMG's.

My big one: Having most infantry squads reliant on long-range DPS (LMG's) which means that instead of taking cover and tactical positioning, the optimal micro is often to just attack moving around in a blob to get max range LMG's firing ASAP.

Or: 1 man cheese snipers that discourage active gameplay and instead force opponents to surprise blob up to it to try and force it to retreat or instagib it before the player reacts.

Beyond these two, there's so much of CoH2's design that actively encourages and promotes blobbing that could otherwise be avoided. Then people are always so surprised and disgusted to see people blobing.
26 Dec 2022, 15:29 PM
#12
avatar of OKSpitfire

Posts: 261



Lol this is so spot on! It's poorly designed that Obersoldaten that have both bundle grenades and frangibles to annihilate SMG troopers up close such as Rangers, despite having already shredded them on approach. LMG grens are better designed since they can't use rifle grenades up close, but LMG's in general still have pretty high DPS up close. There's very little downside to LMG's.

My big one: Having most infantry squads reliant on long-range DPS (LMG's) which means that instead of taking cover and tactical positioning, the optimal micro is often to just attack moving around in a blob to get max range LMG's firing ASAP.

Or: 1 man cheese snipers that discourage active gameplay and instead force opponents to surprise blob up to it to try and force it to retreat or instagib it before the player reacts.

Beyond these two, there's so much of CoH2's design that actively encourages and promotes blobbing that could otherwise be avoided. Then people are always so surprised and disgusted to see people blobing.


We've talked about it before in other threads, but the maps and the way they are laid out definitely play a part, i think. There aren't too many blind spots and chokepoints on a lot of the newer maps, and this would make it a bit easier for the more close range specialists to close in and do their thing.

Also, blobbing squads together of pretty much any type, close or long range, really discourages dedicated CQC units because its so much easier to wipe them, as they have to get close and put themselves in more danger.
26 Dec 2022, 16:41 PM
#13
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2245 | Subs: 1



Lol this is so spot on! It's poorly designed that Obersoldaten that have both bundle grenades and frangibles to annihilate SMG troopers up close such as Rangers, despite having already shredded them on approach. LMG grens are better designed since they can't use rifle grenades up close, but LMG's in general still have pretty high DPS up close. There's very little downside to LMG's.

My big one: Having most infantry squads reliant on long-range DPS (LMG's) which means that instead of taking cover and tactical positioning, the optimal micro is often to just attack moving around in a blob to get max range LMG's firing ASAP.

Or: 1 man cheese snipers that discourage active gameplay and instead force opponents to surprise blob up to it to try and force it to retreat or instagib it before the player reacts.

Beyond these two, there's so much of CoH2's design that actively encourages and promotes blobbing that could otherwise be avoided. Then people are always so surprised and disgusted to see people blobing.


Blobbing is an Issue in every single RTS game
26 Dec 2022, 17:17 PM
#14
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1511

Long range units will always be superior to close range units. Only map that comes to mind, where close range units are almost always superior to long range, is Ettelbruck for 3v3. Don't know if there are any other maps in other modes.

JLIs perform decently close range. With the 75% crit threshold, they just need to hit once in close range to insta kill a unit. And that 75% threshold will most certainly be reached on approach, even a short approach.
Obers have bundle nade + slow/damage nade which are on separate cooldown, which makes any other close range unit useless, even on tight maps. Especially since the fuse on the bundle nade is quite low. Eg. you can react in time, but the infantry might need to turn. The turn animation can sometimes be wonky. Hence why bundle nades from PGrens, Obers and Falls should ALWAYS be dodged forward or diagonally forward, to avoid the turn-back animation.

Blobbing is also not really a problem.
Soviets have a katyusha.
OKW has a stuka + elite infantry. And the flak HT is brutal against infantry, with pretty much instant suppression. And the MG34 is practically identical to the MG42 in terms of suppression and has the same wide arc.
OST has grens with LMG and MG42 and werfers to deal with blobs. And you can always count on PGrens with bundles, which are thrown quite quickly, land fast and have a short fuse. PGrens overall throw the bundle nade quicker than rifles throw their nade, with a much deadlier impact.
USF and Brits can only pray that they have a Soviet ally in team.
In 1v1s, blobbing is punished by playing around the blobs and capping. So for 1v1s, blobbing is a problem for low ranks.

The only stupid thing in COH2 is the balancing done by community members for free. They should have payed the team, and we wouldn't be left with 2 OP commanders in OKW, 2 OP in OST, 2 OP in Soviets and 1 OP in USF. Brits are a shi* tier faction which only a few know how to play properly. And we wouldn't have factions which have been changed so much from their original design.

Eg. due to the fact that OKW has raketen which can retreat, they should not have a stock premium medium tank. And due to the fact they have plenty of elite infantry, with the starting one being brutal close range, and volks having a good power spike, they should not have had an MG in their stock roster. Also the lower fuel income was a good mechanic for them, given that their late game armour was pretty much OP. Now, their late game armour, only the KT is OP, but the rest still is more than worth the premium price tag.
But then again, having a random team of community balance members, balance the game for free, on their spare time... I mean. Bias will always be there, but on average, if a team has 10 members, say that 5 are "ever so slightly" favoured in axis, and 5 are "ever so slightly" favoured in allies. It will balance out in the end. Some play allies more, so they know what to balance in allies vs axis, and vice versa for axis biased. It's normal and human and expected. But you pay them, and they make it their job to balance it and contribute to Relic. You don't do it for free and then wonder why every balance patch, something was broken OP, either in axis or allies.
27 Dec 2022, 10:03 AM
#15
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1219



Blobbing is an Issue in every single RTS game


Total War: Shogun 1,2, and Total War: Napoleon would like to have a word with you.

Imagine if units could block each other from firing instead of bullets being able to phase through friendly models. Wouldn't that be nice.

27 Dec 2022, 13:21 PM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13472 | Subs: 1



The only stupid thing in COH2 is the balancing done by community members for free. They should have payed the team, and we wouldn't be left with 2 OP commanders in OKW, 2 OP in OST, 2 OP in Soviets and 1 OP in USF. Brits are a shi* tier faction which only a few know how to play properly. And we wouldn't have factions which have been changed so much from their original design.

Mode team should had been payed that is true.

On the other hand payment is not really related to the number of "OP" commanders or the current faction design with original faction design.


Eg. due to the fact that OKW has raketen which can retreat, they should not have a stock premium medium tank.

The is no real connection between having a medium all around tank and an ATG that can retreat.
The two unit serve different roles and there is really very little connection between the two.


And due to the fact they have plenty of elite infantry, with the starting one being brutal close range, and volks having a good power spike, they should not have had an MG in their stock roster. Also the lower fuel income was a good mechanic for them, given that their late game armour was pretty much OP. Now, their late game armour, only the KT is OP, but the rest still is more than worth the premium price tag.

The "lower fuel income" was far from a a good mechanic. Actually it was pretty bad and lead onto VG having Shreck which also a bad mechanic.


27 Dec 2022, 21:59 PM
#17
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2245 | Subs: 1



Total War: Shogun 1,2, and Total War: Napoleon would like to have a word with you.

Imagine if units could block each other from firing instead of bullets being able to phase through friendly models. Wouldn't that be nice.



i remember the only 2times i started Total war Multiplayer

#1 Rome Total War: i spent 5-10min customizing a well rounded army with archers, inf, cav, arty, support etc.
my opponent had a full stack of cataphracts only (only and full stack) and double right clicked me to death

#2 empire total war: i took austria, used inf cav support etc. again. same thing, but this time with English red coats. got right clicked to death
28 Dec 2022, 07:16 AM
#18
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1219



i remember the only 2times i started Total war Multiplayer

#1 Rome Total War: i spent 5-10min customizing a well rounded army with archers, inf, cav, arty, support etc.
my opponent had a full stack of cataphracts only (only and full stack) and double right clicked me to death

#2 empire total war: i took austria, used inf cav support etc. again. same thing, but this time with English red coats. got right clicked to death


Blobbing =/= Spamming

I'm talking about archer units being blocked by units in front of them, napoleonic rifle infantry having to fire by rows or they will be blocked by the units in front of them, shogun 2 gunpowder units which need clear line of sight to fire on the enemy.

Blobbing = You concentrate all the strength of a group of units (usually in a huge group, hence the term "blobbing") on an enemy unit to destroy it before it's able to retaliate in any way, thereby basically winning an engagement for free.

Spamming = Using a large amount of a certain unit because the enemy has failed to field enough counters against said unit to render those units useless. Doesn't necessarily mean they are all in the same spot, unlike blobbing.

Blobbing can counter units designed to counter them by simple force of numbers. Spamming is not the same as blobbing.

Also, I've played total war games (the ones put out before the franchise was turned to utter shite by CA), and cavalry units are just very strong in general. However, using them in a mass blob is not effective. I highly doubt your opponent was "blobbing" them. They might have been using a lot of them (spamming), but putting them all in one big square and running at you would make the cataphracts much less effective.

On a side note, TBQH Total War's multiplayer system is just retarded in general because you've no idea what your enemy's army composition is beforehand. If you had known beforehand that they would be fielding straight cavalry, and they were "blobbing" them, you could have easily countered it, unlike in CoH2 where if you know your enemy is blobbing and you build counters, they can just instakill them before they even get a chance to do anything.
28 Dec 2022, 09:50 AM
#19
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2245 | Subs: 1



Blobbing =/= Spamming

I'm talking about archer units being blocked by units in front of them, napoleonic rifle infantry having to fire by rows or they will be blocked by the units in front of them, shogun 2 gunpowder units which need clear line of sight to fire on the enemy.

Blobbing = You concentrate all the strength of a group of units (usually in a huge group, hence the term "blobbing") on an enemy unit to destroy it before it's able to retaliate in any way, thereby basically winning an engagement for free.

Spamming = Using a large amount of a certain unit because the enemy has failed to field enough counters against said unit to render those units useless. Doesn't necessarily mean they are all in the same spot, unlike blobbing.

Blobbing can counter units designed to counter them by simple force of numbers. Spamming is not the same as blobbing.

Also, I've played total war games (the ones put out before the franchise was turned to utter shite by CA), and cavalry units are just very strong in general. However, using them in a mass blob is not effective. I highly doubt your opponent was "blobbing" them. They might have been using a lot of them (spamming), but putting them all in one big square and running at you would make the cataphracts much less effective.

On a side note, TBQH Total War's multiplayer system is just retarded in general because you've no idea what your enemy's army composition is beforehand. If you had known beforehand that they would be fielding straight cavalry, and they were "blobbing" them, you could have easily countered it, unlike in CoH2 where if you know your enemy is blobbing and you build counters, they can just instakill them before they even get a chance to do anything.


you're focusing about some terminology while I'm talking about bullshit gameplay.

total war games can be broken so easily, watch legendoftotalwar

and blobbing heavy cav (or spamming, then blobbing afterwards, if you want) is one way for it
28 Dec 2022, 11:47 AM
#20
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1219

you're focusing about some terminology...


I'm focusing on you saying that blobbing is an issue in every RTS, which I do not believe is true, I then provided examples of some RTS games where blobbing is not nearly as much of an issue, to which you then attempted to counter with anecdotal evidence, and when I countered by calling out why that doesn't prove anything about blobbing in those games, you say I'm "focusing on terminology". Yeah dude, I'm focusing on *your* terminology.

...while I'm talking about bullshit gameplay.


Well then just say that and we don't have to have an argument about something that we agree with.

total war games can be broken so easily, watch legendoftotalwar


Notice that I specified total war games before CA shitted them up ("nu-TW", especially the Warhammer ones are trash garbage).

and blobbing heavy cav (or spamming, then blobbing afterwards, if you want) is one way for it


You don't blob cavalry in total war (the ones not shit out by CA I mean). It's pointless. Cavalry gets all of it's damage from the charge bonus, and if it's being blocked by cavalry in front of it then the bonus will wear off by the time that it gets to the enemy.

What you DO do is surround the enemy with cavalry and attack from all sides. That's not some kind of exploit. It makes sense and doesn't look stupid, unlike in CoH2 where you have 5 gren squads phasing through each other and firing their LMGs through each others' chests.

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