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russian armor

Guards vs Airborne Long Range

4 Aug 2022, 19:44 PM
#1
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 464

I saw a recent video by Gonk where he compared these units and found the Reg Guards to be stronger at long range despite the fact that Airborne on paper have better weapons. (3 SVT/3 DP vs 2 Mosin/2 PTRS/2 DP)

I understand that Guards PTRS are different from penals but in the video he made a statement that their PTRS do full damage behind cover instead of half. Is that true and is that a bug?

It would help explain as to why Guards seem to do so well against everything especially as their PTRS when they miss can still destroy cover.

I know it is to late for balance but it could be easily fixed in a bug patch along with the bren movement bug for UKF.
4 Aug 2022, 20:18 PM
#2
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2686 | Subs: 4



I understand that Guards PTRS are different from penals but in the video he made a statement that their PTRS do full damage behind cover instead of half. Is that true and is that a bug?



if this is true (in case of heavy cover and garrisons) then it's a bug
5 Aug 2022, 05:06 AM
#3
avatar of SneakEye
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 781 | Subs: 5

Yes this is a bug. Both the PTRS and Infantry Section Boys rifle have a messy implementation. Instead of using a target table as is was meant to be, there are now several special actions to apply different damage based on unit type. Those actions ignore any damage modifier. It can easily be fixed by only using the target table, but I don't expect any update anymore.
5 Aug 2022, 17:25 PM
#4
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 668 | Subs: 1

its probably a bug, but the PTRS doing full damage to green cover is honestly more accurate than it not doing full damage
5 Aug 2022, 22:40 PM
#5
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 613

its probably a bug, but the PTRS doing full damage to green cover is honestly more accurate than it not doing full damage


if it were an axis ptrs it would be wtfop though
5 Aug 2022, 22:57 PM
#6
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 464

Well that is rather sad, I personally tend to avoid Guards because their AT+button just seemed to make everything to easy. I didn't know they were performing so well. Gonk made another comparing different LMG squads vs Obers and Airborne LMG performed the worse. That just seems absurd for the price and muni cost along with lack of utility. The fact that guards were able to win seems to be a really big miss from the balance team, them winning 50% of the time was asinine.

Things like this really do reinforce the perception that specific builds and commanders were favored when balancing the game.

Sorry for rant.
5 Aug 2022, 23:14 PM
#7
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2686 | Subs: 4

Well that is rather sad, I personally tend to avoid Guards because their AT+button just seemed to make everything to easy. I didn't know they were performing so well. Gonk made another comparing different LMG squads vs Obers and Airborne LMG performed the worse. That just seems absurd for the price and muni cost along with lack of utility. The fact that guards were able to win seems to be a really big miss from the balance team, them winning 50% of the time was asinine.

Things like this really do reinforce the perception that specific builds and commanders were favored when balancing the game.

Sorry for rant.


I think guards alone are not that annoying. But what makes it really bad imo is that they're in stacked busted meta commanders.

Two of the guard docs have mark target, which is a nightmare if paired with their button ability.

One doc has 120mm mortars where it's obvious why they're super annoying. Another one has ISU-152 which can be totally game deciding if you didn't pick a counter doctrine. Then there is a very versatile one with recon, IL2 bombs and ML-20s. And the KV-1 one is nowhere near where it used to be but it's still good
5 Aug 2022, 23:20 PM
#8
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3356 | Subs: 1


One doc has 120mm mortars where it's obvious why they're super annoying.

120mm should be removed from Guard Motor coordination. Commander would still be top tier without it. Commander gives you great AT ability and great infantry. No reason it needs to have one of the best indirect pieces in the game
5 Aug 2022, 23:25 PM
#9
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2686 | Subs: 4


120mm should be removed from Guard Motor coordination. Commander would still be top tier without it. Commander gives you great AT ability and great infantry. No reason it needs to have one of the best indirect pieces in the game


Ye. Honestly this commander is overtuned since CoH2 launched (I remember it terrorized the 1v1 meta for years when it had the double T34/85 call-in), and in hindsight we probably should've nerfed it a bit in last commander patch
Yesterday, 01:20 AM
#10
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 156

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Aug 2022, 22:40 PMKoRneY


if it were an axis ptrs it would be wtfop though


G43 sniper rifle
Yesterday, 02:08 AM
#11
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 668 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Aug 2022, 22:40 PMKoRneY


if it were an axis ptrs it would be wtfop though


the infamously overpowered....anti infantry capacity of the PTRS


Would rather face PTRS blobs than shrek blobs if im honest
Yesterday, 12:16 PM
#12
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 881

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Aug 2022, 22:40 PMKoRneY


if it were an axis ptrs it would be wtfop though

Hear hear.

This new info also explains some suspicious lost fights where my Obers got crushed in heavy cover vs firing position Guards. I had put it down to just RNG. Another thing to put on a hoped-for-new-patch.
Yesterday, 14:17 PM
#13
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 887

Oh so Allies are busted... thats why this thread is 1 page long....

Imagine what would happen if this was for an axis unit....
Yesterday, 21:09 PM
#14
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3356 | Subs: 1


Hear hear.

This new info also explains some suspicious lost fights where my Obers got crushed in heavy cover vs firing position Guards. I had put it down to just RNG. Another thing to put on a hoped-for-new-patch.

I mean, it's still a lot of RNG. The chance to hit Obers with ptrs is extremely low, especially in heavy cover

It's about a 18% chance of hitting Ober models at long range, and that's without heavy cover

Oh so Allies are busted... thats why this thread is 1 page long....

Imagine what would happen if this was for an axis unit....

Yeah the Boys AT rifle is clearly making the Brits OP

You didn't even know how heavy cover worked until recently, stop talking lol
Today, 08:50 AM
#15
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783



You didn't even know how heavy cover worked until recently, stop talking lol

Ouch!
Today, 10:52 AM
#16
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 887



You didn't even know how heavy cover worked until recently, stop talking lol


You must be a hardcore fan of mine.

To which post are you referring to
Today, 12:38 PM
#17
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 464


I mean, it's still a lot of RNG. The chance to hit Obers with ptrs is extremely low, especially in heavy cover

It's about a 18% chance of hitting Ober models at long range, and that's without heavy cover



The problem is you are only taking into account if the PTRS hit the Ober squad. Even if the shot hits the sand bag that is a successful shot as enough shots will make it a cover vs no cover situation. In most late engagements the sandbags/green cover will already be damaged so alot of these matches will favor Guards fairly quickly.

Going back to Airborne vs Guards part of the reason DPs were made so weak was due to Guards vet and PTRS performance. Airborne Guards should have received a slightly stronger variant or had better ACC/cool down VET to show that they were the LMG specialist.
Today, 12:42 PM
#18
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3356 | Subs: 1


The problem is you are only taking into account if the PTRS hit the Ober squad. Even if the shot hits the sand bag that is a successful shot as enough shots will make it a cover vs no cover situation.

Yeah but that's an intended effect of the ptrs. The part about them doing full damage on a hit ignoring heavy cover isn't, but at least the chance of that is still low, since the RA bonus still applies

There's lots of ways to destroy cover. Especially in late engagements. Indirect fire, AT guns, etc


You must be a hardcore fan of mine

Just a hardcore fan of the game. Unlike you, apparently
Today, 13:45 PM
#19
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 464


Yeah but that's an intended effect of the ptrs. The part about them doing full damage on a hit ignoring heavy cover isn't, but at least the chance of that is still low, since the RA bonus still applies

There's lots of ways to destroy cover. Especially in late engagements. Indirect fire, AT guns, etc


But, as you said earlier it requires a lot of RNG for the PTRS shots to hit. Yet even with that RNG, the testing done by GONK showed that they won 50% of the time under probably the best conditions for Obers as they are behind indestructible green cover. To put it another way, a Generalist elite with the cheapest muni cost performs the best against arguably the best LR AI infantry in the game.

Airborne 3DPS get soundly beat, LMG Paras perform ok despite arriving at 3CP and 120muni while LMG Commandos needed to fire out of camo to perform ok. All these units are AI only with limited utility, they should be rewarded with better performance in their intended role.

Gonk only ran a handful of tests but a pattern was clearly seen.
Today, 13:49 PM
#20
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3356 | Subs: 1


But, as you said earlier it requires a lot of RNG for the PTRS shots to hit. Yet even with that RNG, the testing done by GONK showed that they won 50% of the time under probably the best conditions for Obers as they are behind indestructible green cover. To put it another way, a Generalist elite with the cheapest muni cost performs the best against arguably the best LR AI infantry in the game.

And how did the obers do in light cover? And in no cover? Pretty confident they spank guards in both of those situations, the guards would need their prone position every time

Not to mention, obers literally have a doctrinal upgrade that let's them ignore cover bonuses

I don't disagree that there's issues with guards. I just think it has more to do with doctrine
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