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Ability cost scaling

4 Aug 2022, 20:34 PM
#21
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1051



You are the only person in this thread to use the word overperforming so far, nobody said what you describe



You are literally autoretarding yourself to make me look bad but end up proving my point.

If it's not for the perceived overperformance of medium/heavy tanks using smoke, why even bother scaling its cost to begin with?
4 Aug 2022, 20:36 PM
#22
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1051


Mark target is a bizarre example to use because you usually only use that on heavier tanks to begin with


And I usually only "use" panzer tactician on lighter tanks in order to avoid a confrontation since with panther and up i win every engagement.

Ergo, Panzer Tactician is fine as is Mark Vehicle by your argument.

4 Aug 2022, 20:37 PM
#23
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1051


I also made the case for Mark Target being another overly cost efficient ability that should be subject to scaling so I like them apples I guess.


At least you are true to your word... appreciated
4 Aug 2022, 21:45 PM
#24
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1


If it's not for the perceived overperformance of medium/heavy tanks using smoke, why even bother scaling its cost to begin with?

Because saying an ability is too cheap on certain units is not the same as just flatly saying it's OP like you implied:


and in order to tone it down you decide to selectively and arrogantly increase its muni tax "just bcz omg its so op".

OP gave very clear and justified reason for the change. It wasn't "wahhh OP plz nerf"... Only person being arrogant here is you


And I usually only "use" panzer tactician on lighter tanks in order to avoid a confrontation since with panther and up i win every engagement.

That's a lie, or you're just really bad at the game. You see people use it for any class if vehicle. It's so cheap why not

Can't say the same about Mark target. MTs value definitely increases in team games though, but that's a different conversation
5 Aug 2022, 04:01 AM
#25
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1



There's an inherent risk in making tanks in general in terms of COH2 gameplay, so maximizing the risk by making an ability more expensive for the tank existing alone is not fair even by your antiaxis larp standards.


there is no risk in making tanks but there is risk in committing tanks in combat, skill smoke has been nicknamed as such by the community because it makes committing tanks less dangerous because you can disengage instantly against AT guns, the ground attack will hit your tank way less likely than an aimed shot

having a tank while the enemy does not have a tank is an inherent advantage
5 Aug 2022, 05:17 AM
#26
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1212



Panzer tactician is an instant sight blocker thats given to tanks who already have blitzkrieg to run away even EASIER. you dont risk ANYTHING, wdym?


Before a certain person show up and make thing worse by picking this line out of your post, i will say that Panzer tactican do have a delay on activation.
Still, imagine saying something like panzer tactican require "skill" to use.
5 Aug 2022, 08:02 AM
#27
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2837 | Subs: 2


Please stay on topic and don't derail by overly exaggerating.
This is not an Axis vs Allies thread, nor is it a Panzer Tactician balance thread or focusing on any other commander in CoH2.

The point is: Should abilities be scaled to offer a more consistent cost for benefit whenever possible?
5 Aug 2022, 09:49 AM
#28
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1

The sole idea to make abilities costing the same price regardless of the faction is already a design flaw imposed by the modding team. Why would grenades cost the same thing for Ostheer and OKW? They aren't the same faction with the same strengh and weakeness, one faction could be aimed toward the use of grenade with a lower cost while the other having lower cost on another ability promoting different way of playing the game unlike what we have today where everything should be like Ostheer.
Why would grenades cost the same between Ostheer and USF or UKF if they aren't used the same way and if their unlocking overall cost isn't the same.

IMO you're going too far with this topic, while I agree the cost of panzer tactician could be different depending on the unit, in my opinion your discussion the final step of a project without even started it.

5 Aug 2022, 14:50 PM
#30
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1051


Please stay on topic and don't derail by overly exaggerating.
This is not an Axis vs Allies thread, nor is it a Panzer Tactician balance thread or focusing on any other commander in CoH2.

The point is: Should abilities be scaled to offer a more consistent cost for benefit whenever possible?


The answer is: clearly not.

Why is this the answer? Because you (nor me nor anybody else) can define what these terms means for COH2 Balance:
  • Consistent (across what and when and where?)
  • Cost for benefit (decided by whom????).
5 Aug 2022, 15:20 PM
#31
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2837 | Subs: 2



The answer is: clearly not.

Why is this the answer? Because you (nor me nor anybody else) can define what these terms means for COH2 Balance:
  • Consistent (across what and when and where?)
  • Cost for benefit (decided by whom????).


That's a very loosely defined and weak argument according to which you basically never need to update any game.
There are clear objective parameters such as cost, performance etc available to sketch out a rough idea. The rest is up for testing. Cost and benefit of an ability can be determined the same way literally all units and abilities have been balanced. Just play test.

If no one could ever properly say that something is too cheap or expensive for what it does, we'd never have any balance update.

There's definitely means to make things more consistent in CoH2, the points you made in the post above have no real argument behind them.
5 Aug 2022, 16:29 PM
#32
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1



Before a certain person show up and make thing worse by picking this line out of your post, i will say that Panzer tactican do have a delay on activation.
Still, imagine saying something like panzer tactican require "skill" to use.


it isn't 0.0 seconds delay instant, but for all practical purposes it is fast triggering
6 Aug 2022, 21:06 PM
#33
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 637



Panzer tactician is quite a special ability.


I feel like abilities like this should be built into the faction in some way.

Like imagine if Whermacht had something similar to Hammer/Anvil in which you can choose between Spotting Scopes, Panzer Tactician or Hull Down.


Pretty much every commander I use has one of these abilities and I pick them specifically for one of these abilities only.
7 Aug 2022, 08:07 AM
#34
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1255



I feel like abilities like this should be built into the faction in some way.

Like imagine if Whermacht had something similar to Hammer/Anvil in which you can choose between Spotting Scopes, Panzer Tactician or Hull Down.


Pretty much every commander I use has one of these abilities and I pick them specifically for one of these abilities only.


It should simply not be in doctrines with callin tanks or vehicles. Esp not with mediums heavies and superheavies.

If we have another patch. It should be removed from those if the preposed scaling change wont make it in.
8 Aug 2022, 08:23 AM
#35
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2837 | Subs: 2



I feel like abilities like this should be built into the faction in some way.

Like imagine if Whermacht had something similar to Hammer/Anvil in which you can choose between Spotting Scopes, Panzer Tactician or Hull Down.


Pretty much every commander I use has one of these abilities and I pick them specifically for one of these abilities only.


CoH3 seems to try something like this with the Wehrmacht, which will be interesting to see if it works out.
I disagree though that CoH2's Wehrmacht would need a general tank upgrade, since the tanks are already very strong. There's no problem with having a faction with generally stronger tanks by design, but then all factions need to have their specialty. CoH2 is currently not balanced for this, and one faction working differently surely will cause issues.
8 Aug 2022, 12:23 PM
#36
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1051



CoH3 seems to try something like this with the Wehrmacht, which will be interesting to see if it works out.
I disagree though that CoH2's Wehrmacht would need a general tank upgrade, since the tanks are already very strong. There's no problem with having a faction with generally stronger tanks by design, but then all factions need to have their specialty. CoH2 is currently not balanced for this, and one faction working differently surely will cause issues.


COH3 is certainly quite like this, but they take it a step further: every tech upgrade is Hammer/Anvil in style.

I am not really sure if they are going to bring this to final game, but from what we have seen so far every tech stage gives you two possible alternatives and not one like now.

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