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Command P4 vs Command AEC - what the buff!

28 Jun 2022, 13:35 PM
#41
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1


Well yeah. With mark target, any target is easy.

Yeah I've gotten spoiled by it since I almost always have it available when playing with my crew


I only play randoms in 3v3s so I know the struggle it can be to kill an elefant/jagd, especially with ~50% chance of penetration on the FF. Sure the tulips help with the stun, but you still need a lot of coordination.

Voice chat is a massive advantage imo, so the coordination is much easier. Unless you're against another arranged team of course

The tulips are clutch because you can do a bunch of damage before taking any shots from Ele. Even with the 50% chance I think it's still better than other allied TDs. Can always stun it with the 2nd set of rockets if you have to run, but if it's marked that's usually a death sentence
28 Jun 2022, 14:11 PM
#42
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13153 | Subs: 1

FF 76mm gun has 52.5% to 65% chance to penetrate an Elfant from max to close range frontally.

Chance go up to 60% to 74% with Command buff.

Tulips will always penetrate.

But once more Elefant is no way a benchmark for the performance of TDs like the firefly.
28 Jun 2022, 14:45 PM
#43
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460


The tulips are clutch because you can do a bunch of damage before taking any shots from Ele. Even with the 50% chance I think it's still better than other allied TDs. Can always stun it with the 2nd set of rockets if you have to run, but if it's marked that's usually a death sentence



I consider FFs to be the best TDs in the game. The bonus psychological aspect of 240 dmg per shot on vet3 FF is sometimes greater than the fact it becomes 3shot medium.
Jacksons are great in lower modes where it's easier to use their speed. Most 3v3s and 4v4s, TD play is mostly "Park the TD and let it rip". Something that FF is best at.
Soviets are also great at parking the TD. Heck, it's designed to be parked.
FFs are best at killing heavies+
Jacksons are better for mediums generally but with the AP ammo they can take on heavies. Still, tulips stun is better with the 200-240 dmg.
I guess the SU85 is great with veterancy for all, but is casemate. Focused sight though
29 Jun 2022, 09:30 AM
#46
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 965 | Subs: 1


I consider FFs to be the best TDs in the game.


Stat wise, best TD in the game is Jackson, followed by SU85 if you get them to vet 3. Firefly is actually the weakest on vet3.

Both Jackson and SU85 get insane penetration buffs, while firefly dont. On top of that vet 3 firefly takes 12 seconds to deal 480 damage (2 hits), SU-85 takes ~12 seconds to deal 480 damage (3 hits) and Jackson can deal 4 hits in 12 seconds.

Basically Fireflies are only good at alpha striking, after that they are objectively the weakest ones.
29 Jun 2022, 10:14 AM
#47
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1



Stat wise, best TD in the game is Jackson, followed by SU85 if you get them to vet 3. Firefly is actually the weakest on vet3.

Both Jackson and SU85 get insane penetration buffs, while firefly dont. On top of that vet 3 firefly takes 12 seconds to deal 480 damage (2 hits), SU-85 takes ~12 seconds to deal 480 damage (3 hits) and Jackson can deal 4 hits in 12 seconds.

Basically Fireflies are only good at alpha striking, after that they are objectively the weakest ones.


-offtopic-ish: I seem to have horrible luck with jacksons, I have seen tightrope missing/bouncing 8 out of 10 fired shots at a king tiger and never liked the jackson again

additionally alpha strike sometimes matters more vs reactive players, the tulips can do wonders sometimes
29 Jun 2022, 12:06 PM
#48
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460



Stat wise, best TD in the game is Jackson, followed by SU85 if you get them to vet 3. Firefly is actually the weakest on vet3.

Both Jackson and SU85 get insane penetration buffs, while firefly dont. On top of that vet 3 firefly takes 12 seconds to deal 480 damage (2 hits), SU-85 takes ~12 seconds to deal 480 damage (3 hits) and Jackson can deal 4 hits in 12 seconds.

Basically Fireflies are only good at alpha striking, after that they are objectively the weakest ones.


And alpha strikes are what matters most. I know the basic math behind each one points to the FF being the weakest, but in reality, who stays around after two shots in teamgames? (if you play 3v3+) Have you ever seen a chasing Jackson or SU85 in a non-hail-Mary-dive scenario? Most of the times, people tolerate 2 shots on their tanks.

And where did you get that vet3 Jackson deals 4 hits in 12 seconds with a reload time of ~ 4.6 seconds? It's 3 shots, not 4. If it didn't have the wind-up/down time, then it would deal 4 hits in 12 seconds.

So basically all deal the same amount but the FF needs less shots. So needing less shots also means less hits to bounce, but it also has lower penetration..... BUUUT it gets tulips.... So ....it all evens out. Jackson deals the most DPS with AP ammo as far as I know.

All in all: Alpha strike >>> Agility

Jackson gets the nice velocity and all....but I have extremely seldom seen Jacksons used that way in anything beyond 1v1. Most of the time, Jackson behaves like an SU85, sitting still and shooting. Better at running away though... BUT it has a large target size, especially compared to the SU85, and no chance to bounce anything.

So from my experience, and simple math, FF is the best. I really don't remember any game where my or my allied Jackson used the velocity to it's advantage in 3v3s. You usually can't chase as there are always some AT walls. High target size means getting hit most of the time. You can escape much more easily with the Jackson, than you can with the SU85 or the FF, but in reality, if your Jackson needs escaping, you're not really winning the game, are you?
In this game, in modes above 1v1, armour/firepower/alpha strike (Elite level stats) matter much more than being a speedy boy, as you have much less space to maneuver and there are plenty of f*ck more enemies
29 Jun 2022, 12:25 PM
#49
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13153 | Subs: 1



...

This Thread is about C.PZ 4 and UKF command vehicles and not about allied TDs, can we please get back on topic?

Actually the synergy of FF and command vehicle is great. Same goes for Centaur.
29 Jun 2022, 18:59 PM
#50
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 166




I consider FFs to be the best TDs in the game. The bonus psychological aspect of 240 dmg per shot on vet3 FF is sometimes greater than the fact it becomes 3shot medium.
Jacksons are great in lower modes where it's easier to use their speed. Most 3v3s and 4v4s, TD play is mostly "Park the TD and let it rip". Something that FF is best at.
Soviets are also great at parking the TD. Heck, it's designed to be parked.
FFs are best at killing heavies+
Jacksons are better for mediums generally but with the AP ammo they can take on heavies. Still, tulips stun is better with the 200-240 dmg.
I guess the SU85 is great with veterancy for all, but is casemate. Focused sight though

IMO, FF is the best because you can deal that much more damage in a single burst of DMG, especially with Mark Target.The massive alpha damage on its own can deter a pushing tank, or outright kill it where the other three allied TDs would leave it at a sliver of health.

Besides, your AT won't just come from the slow-firing FFs, you'll probably have atleast ATG to back them up which will cover the slow fire rate of the FF.
29 Jun 2022, 20:37 PM
#51
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 637

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2022, 12:25 PMVipper

can we please get back on topic?



I love how the person who always derails and troll's threads is now asking for people to get back on topic.



As for the British Command Vehicle it is fine considering that you need to essentially sacrifice a vehicle for it. Personally I would like to see different effects based on the vehicle chosen (Choosing Firefly for example would not give a penalty but instead only grant additional penetration to surrounding vehicles, while Centaur would give extra effects for infantry, while Comet would give movement speed or something along those effects) It would probably overcomplicate things but for the most part its fine as is.


Command P4 is in a good spot, I use it in most of my games and the only thing I would like to see is shared veterancy on the Command P4 since it would fit with the idea of being a command tank and would help it gain veterancy quicker. Gaining Vet on the Command P4 is a pain in the ass especially for some lackluster veterancy effects for the vehicle (such as gaining 60% weapon rotation speed at vet 3, some serious Relic trolling instead of something useful like increased accuracy to help its AI)
30 Jun 2022, 01:19 AM
#52
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 266

Talk about CMD unit itself:
- CMD pz 4, CMD panther can stand on it owns legs and this their job done.
- UKF CMD vehicle need to sastified a vehicle power to exchange it with powerful buff. Turn out only UC (old) and AEC is only choice. That thins makes tactical choice worthless.
How about everything around it:
- CMD Pz4 give Axis side a huge improvement they need: stay longer on the field. You thing 10% is small ?. Take extra 1 or 2 hit is extreme big advanatage For Axis. They just need to stay longer on the field. That is.
- Doctrine also a big +, there are many doctrine combine with CMD Pz4 from defend to offense. Even Mobile defend was Offense doctrine back then. Some combination in teamgame is consider OP with CMD pz4 doctrine.
- In orther hand, UKF only have one which is... bad.
30 Jun 2022, 07:45 AM
#53
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13153 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2022, 01:19 AMtheekvn
Talk about CMD unit itself:
- CMD pz 4, CMD panther can stand on it owns legs and this their job done.

C Pz4 can not stand on it own legs since it will lose to any medium tank at any range even at a T-34/76 although it more expensive. So it needs to be supported

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2022, 01:19 AMtheekvn

- UKF CMD vehicle need to sastified a vehicle power to exchange it with powerful buff. Turn out only UC (old) and AEC is only choice. That thins makes tactical choice worthless.

No vehicle is "sacrificed" (I guess is what you mean).

Churchill can be used also at command vehicles and even vet 1 Centaur since the can still use their ability to damage infatry. AEC is the most cost efficient choice but that is not a bad thing, in the case of the C. Pz4 there is simply no choice...

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2022, 01:19 AMtheekvn

How about everything around it:
- CMD Pz4 give Axis side a huge improvement they need: stay longer on the field. You thing 10% is small ?. Take extra 1 or 2 hit is extreme big advanatage For Axis. They just need to stay longer on the field. That is.

C.Pz4 allow to survive damage that would be lethal otherwise but I doubt that many people would risk 8 HP entities and 64 HP medium tanks and risk them in a fight.

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2022, 01:19 AMtheekvn

- Doctrine also a big +, there are many doctrine combine with CMD Pz4 from defend to offense. Even Mobile defend was Offense doctrine back then. Some combination in teamgame is consider OP with CMD pz4 doctrine.
- In orther hand, UKF only have one which is... bad.

There are two UKF commander with c. vehicle upgrade not one. Royal Engineer Regiment and Tactical Support Regiment. There 5 ostheer commander with C. Pz4 and given the fact that there more the twice Ostheer commander than UKF it makes sense so again no "bad thing".
30 Jun 2022, 09:37 AM
#54
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 266

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2022, 07:45 AMVipper

C Pz4 can not stand on it own legs since it will lose to any medium tank at any range even at a T-34/76 although it more expensive. So it needs to be supported


No vehicle is "sacrificed" (I guess is what you mean).

Churchill can be used also at command vehicles and even vet 1 Centaur since the can still use their ability to damage infatry. AEC is the most cost efficient choice but that is not a bad thing, in the case of the C. Pz4 there is simply no choice...


C.Pz4 allow to survive damage that would be lethal otherwise but I doubt that many people would risk 8 HP entities and 64 HP medium tanks and risk them in a fight.


There are two UKF commander with c. vehicle upgrade not one. Royal Engineer Regiment and Tactical Support Regiment. There 5 ostheer commander with C. Pz4 and given the fact that there more the twice Ostheer commander than UKF it makes sense so again no "bad thing".

- Royal Engineer and Tactical support provide UKF same fromula meanwhile 5 OST doctrine give you 5 different way to support main army. (1)
- Churchill, Centaur cost you bunch of Fuel, manpower and Pop. Now wasting it just for a buff. No wonder why 80% UKF player in 3v3 4v4 better commit suicide due to their choice. (2)
- Because of (1) and (2). CMD Pz 4 is more popular from 1v1 to 4v4. raito is about 1 to 3 game with CMD Pz 4 doctrine in every 10 OST game.
30 Jun 2022, 09:47 AM
#55
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2022, 09:37 AMtheekvn

- Royal Engineer and Tactical support provide UKF same fromula meanwhile 5 OST doctrine give you 5 different way to play your army ?. Your point is pointless after all.


Vipper is trying to defend how a buff that gives 10% free hp to already durable tanks (with 960 hp non doc and well over 1k hp on doctrinal heavy tanks) that ALSO applies on allies is balanced because the p4 isnt like the okw command panther and cant fight it's own battles. Some of the doctrines also include spotting scopes and/or panzer tactician, so you know, must need a buff

Personally it should be like a standard wehrmacht panzer 4 F2 so it can not only make elefants, tigers or massed panthers even tankier, but also apply the buff on itself and kill your hopes and dreams in team mode
30 Jun 2022, 09:57 AM
#56
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13153 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2022, 09:37 AMtheekvn

- Royal Engineer and Tactical support provide UKF same fromula meanwhile 5 OST doctrine give you 5 different way to play your army ?. Your point is pointless after all.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that you are simply factually wrong and there two UKF doctrines with Command vehicles and not just one as you claimed.

And no Royal Engineer Regiment and Tactical Support Regiment do not have the "same formula" or even play the same. Actually the only common thing they have are 1 ability.
30 Jun 2022, 10:06 AM
#57
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13153 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2022, 09:47 AMKatukov


Vipper is trying to defend how a buff that gives 10% free hp to already durable tanks (with 960 hp non doc and well over 1k hp on doctrinal heavy tanks) that ALSO applies on allies is balanced because the p4 isnt like the okw command panther and cant fight it's own battles. Some of the doctrines also include spotting scopes and/or panzer tactician, so you know, must need a buff

Are you claiming that C. pzIV is OP?

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2022, 09:47 AMKatukov

Personally it should be like a standard wehrmacht panzer 4 F2 so it can not only make elefants, tigers or massed panthers even tankier, but also apply the buff on itself and kill your hopes and dreams in team mode

Your personal suggestion is would be bad for the game.

Actually there a number of changes that should applied to all command vehicles like:

Seperate aura into two parts. One passive with low impact one active with higher ones so that it requires player input to become more effective.

Custom made vet bonuses so that aura and support increases with veterancy.

Specifically for the PzV chance could include:
Lower manpower price
Lower XP value
Lower pop
Increase accuracy so it can hit light vehicles
Increase penetration to about Valentine levels

optional:
add 2 fire modes:
indirect high explosive similar to stug E with range of 40 (uses the same gun)
direct with hollow charge rounds for AT similar to how it now work but with little AOE
30 Jun 2022, 11:16 AM
#58
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2022, 09:47 AMKatukov


Vipper is trying to defend how a buff that gives 10% free hp to already durable tanks (with 960 hp non doc and well over 1k hp on doctrinal heavy tanks) that ALSO applies on allies is balanced because the p4 isnt like the okw command panther and cant fight it's own battles. Some of the doctrines also include spotting scopes and/or panzer tactician, so you know, must need a buff

Personally it should be like a standard wehrmacht panzer 4 F2 so it can not only make elefants, tigers or massed panthers even tankier, but also apply the buff on itself and kill your hopes and dreams in team mode


why is your axis winrate at like 40% if they are so OPOPOP like you state in every post of yours
30 Jun 2022, 12:05 PM
#59
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1



why is your axis winrate at like 40% if they are so OPOPOP like you state in every post of yours

?



I have no interest in playing axis factions, hence my low play count of both factions. I'm playing the osttruppen defensive doctrine as wehr almost exclusively, probably the most fun doctrine the faction has
30 Jun 2022, 12:21 PM
#60
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2838 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jun 2022, 11:18 AMVipper
UC was actually so broken as command vehicle that the had to remove the upgrade from it.

Still other vehicles can be used and I do see command Churchills

As for FF and AEC their performance vs elefant is not a benchmark. They can delete panther in matter of secs.

I can see some virtue in making the Churchill a command tank, but on the other hand this is a huge waste of resources. This tank is quite expensive, and you're basically halving its fighting power. Although you can keep it in the fight for longer, I somehow don't think it is a good move.

All of these comparisons are lopsided. The 2xFF+AEC combo is so expensive, almost every tank will die quickly. That's how its supposed to be if you pour a ton of resources into pure AT vehicles.


jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2022, 10:06 AMVipper
Specifically for the PzV chance could include:
Lower manpower price
Lower XP value
Lower pop
Increase accuracy so it can hit light vehicles
Increase penetration to about Valentine levels

You still did not convincingly say why the Command P4 needs buffs in the first place. Your only arguments so far were that
1. It were too expensive for a support unit
2. It does not have the fighting power of dedicated combat vehicles.

The first is not a point at all. The cost depends on how useful a unit is, not an alleged class. The second one is self-explanatory by the fact that you get a ton of utility out of it.
I repeat myself: You get the durability of a normal P4, you get the AI capability of a normal P4, you get slightly decreased cost, and you get a good aura buff for not only you but all your allies as well.

What you don't get is the AT of a normal P4. That's what the utility has to compensate, and especially in larger modes it does.
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