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At the end the modding team didn’t balance the game.

23 Mar 2022, 20:07 PM
#101
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 211



Again with that bullshit.

Take the last patch for ST: they added 1cp to its reqs, some fuel and removed its ability to self repair and throw grens at the same time. I also think they removed like 5 vision. They did NOTHING to the base stats YET you claim it dominated the game BEFORE THE LAST PATCH.

It's absurd, and a placebo. Unless you think allies can get a TD in the 3 extra minutes that OKW players now need more to get it.


The Sturmtiger has received a number of changes to reduce its impact and how quickly it can gain veterancy. Range has been reduced to make the unit incapable of firing beyond spotting range, cost and CP requirements have been increased to delay the unit, and veterancy requirements have been raised.

Range from 40 to 35
CP requirement from 8 to 10
Fuel cost from 165 to 185
Experience requirements from 1400/2800/5600/7400/8900 to 2000/4000/8000/10000/12000
Veterancy 4 +10 sight removed
Can no longer use Crew Repair when Reloading

Range 40 -> Shoot inf from fog Range 35 shoot inf from not from fog but in vision
Thats massive and by far the biggest nerf here.

Nice fake news though. Gratz for contributing nothing of value here!

24 Mar 2022, 03:22 AM
#102
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 278

to be honest, remove 'Abandon" feature of StrumTiger is big Buff. Because of this Sturm Tiger can:
- Reload, repair in frontline without fear abandon from random shot.
- Increase RoF by a lot. Istead of spending 20-40s to go back a safe place. you only need about 5-10s for it.
- Diving kill is become too hard. at 8 CP, Allies cant afford a muti tank dive for a 9 kill shot heavy tank. good old time when you scout ST in repair mode, you can commit a dive to abandon and infict a good damage while your tank still had a chance to run aways.
- Abandon can be abuse to give alies ST. Yes but also no, at same time you give up 165 fuel unit and repair time, vet and sweaker your armry until 2nd ST come. Your alies also added a big pop cap to their army and that hurt him in long term./.

Combined it with new buff. ST was auto pick in almost every team game from 2v2 to 4v4. Usually there were 2-3 ST with Jadtiger, ele, Tiger 1, KT and so on. imaging 2,3 ST nuking constantly every minutes from left, right and center !
24 Mar 2022, 08:20 AM
#103
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2200 | Subs: 1

24 Mar 2022, 22:04 PM
#104
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1


Again with that bullshit.

Take the last patch for ST: they added 1cp to its reqs, some fuel and removed its ability to self repair and throw grens at the same time. I also think they removed like 5 vision. They did NOTHING to the base stats YET you claim it dominated the game BEFORE THE LAST PATCH.

In that patch they literally reduced its firing range from 40 to 35... You're either completely full of shit or you just don't know what you're talking about. Possibly both

Iirc that's the second time they nerfed it's range too. It used to be 45
25 Mar 2022, 15:18 PM
#105
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2153 | Subs: 15

Unpopular opinion: I enjoyed this game more when Relic balanced the game rather than the community balance team.

That being said however, I would have still rathered the community balance team take over than the game being abandoned like Dawn of War 2.

The community balance patches kept the game fresh but I felt they were without vision and full of compromises which made the game worse. Relic patches felt more of a league of legends styled balancing. Units that were previously unused got buffed leading to a new meta. Units overused got nerfed.

A lot of the community changes felt very Axis favoured too. Removing IL-2 from some popular commanders without adding it to any others nerfed Soviets pretty hard. Meanwhile the replacement change on the elefant was OP as all heck and much better than the one it replaced while the Soviet one was useless. This persisted through an entire patch. No hotfixes to nerf it. Prototype changes happening on Axis before hitting Allies was a huge bummer too. Allied armies had to wait another patch before prototype changes applied to their armies. Like Half-Track healing and Sturmtiger buff.

Some of the innocuous changes seemed to favour Axis more rather than Allies. Like MG squad members branching out for vision. Axis has better MGs so this benefits them more. MG retreat no longer deathlooping is not equal either. MG34/42 and Vickers will teleport to random members instead of having a member having to go pick it up. This makes it hard to chase when its retreating especially when one retreating squad member is ahead of the rest, the MG will teleport to them. Maxim and M2HB though? The one carrying the MG will always run in a very predictable line, very easy to focus fire and block. Speaking of Maxim, its expensive garbage because of the community balance team.

Overall, team games was a lot more fun back then than it is now. I wish Relic would revert all the community balance changes and go back to the last Relic patch.

My form of protest: Don't support any 1v1 content. Don't watch it on Youtube, don't talk about it, don't share it, don't sub to those Youtubers. That's what I do to protest. 1v1s balancing ruined team games. This game doesn't need an esports scene, just balance it to keep it fresh instead of boring as it is now.

Sure the game might have more players now than before but that was because they gave the game away for free a couple times.



+10000000
29 Mar 2022, 03:46 AM
#106
avatar of y3ivan

Posts: 156

basicly removing the unique asymmetrical between factions and basicly made clones of each factions just for the sake of E-sport balance.

classic example of changes i dont agree on are soviet sniper and wehr sniper 2014 vs 2019

instead of putting effort in learning, lets copy and paste it for all factions
29 Mar 2022, 12:00 PM
#107
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 761 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Mar 2022, 03:46 AMy3ivan
basicly removing the unique asymmetrical between factions and basicly made clones of each factions just for the sake of E-sport balance.

classic example of changes i dont agree on are soviet sniper and wehr sniper 2014 vs 2019

instead of putting effort in learning, lets copy and paste it for all factions


unrelated, but did the wehr sniper have anything going for it against the sniper teams that the soviets had



it fired faster, but it could hardly take out BOTH sniper models
29 Mar 2022, 15:39 PM
#108
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1183

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Mar 2022, 12:00 PMKatukov


unrelated, but did the wehr sniper have anything going for it against the sniper teams that the soviets had



it fired faster, but it could hardly take out BOTH sniper models


True but because SOV had Sniper team they were not one shot one kill as Wehr sniper was, they were more inaccurate.
2 Apr 2022, 14:42 PM
#109
avatar of DerKuhlmann

Posts: 453

I just miss all the synergy that was between factions
Like dropping mg42 to my okw friend that equips it with fallschrimjaegers
Or dropping vickers to my penal friends.

Also a lot was nerfed, like ostheer sniper incindiary shot not taking 6 seconds to fire, so you snipe the retreating squad.
11 Apr 2022, 10:03 AM
#110
avatar of vietnamabc

Posts: 1063

I just miss all the synergy that was between factions
Like dropping mg42 to my okw friend that equips it with fallschrimjaegers
Or dropping vickers to my penal friends.

Also a lot was nerfed, like ostheer sniper incindiary shot not taking 6 seconds to fire, so you snipe the retreating squad.

Oh yeah incidinary shot rekting flanking shocks at close range was also good time.
11 Apr 2022, 11:36 AM
#111
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 206

Balance is very map oriented, nowadays almost all maps favors long range engagement, change the Map pool to more medium/short range engagements and will see a lot of topics about how shocks/assaultsomething is op.
A balanced map should have one side of long range, and the other side with short range, something like that
11 Apr 2022, 12:50 PM
#112
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1183

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2022, 11:36 AMBizrock
Balance is very map oriented, nowadays almost all maps favors long range engagement, change the Map pool to more medium/short range engagements and will see a lot of topics about how shocks/assaultsomething is op.
A balanced map should have one side of long range, and the other side with short range, something like that


The "perfectly" balanced map would be one where the action DOES NOT condense into a single area of it. As such to do this you need :

  • As you said, more enviroment change. Ideally, the only open areas would be each side's fuels and munis so that they can be covered my a single MG/Bunker to allow the player's economy to run smoothly and invading it becomes a risk factor.
  • Bringing back the manpower points, since they can act as a leverage against campers by cutting them not only supply, but men as well. Thus you accomplish two things, remove campers from the game and also make keeping every area count for the wider picture since that if you don't, you will lose your ability to replenish troops.
  • Remove the maps with single chokepoints that players so freely choose to camp on. It's not only an idiotic gamble, it's also a huge drain on the normal flow of gameplay. I almost feel orgasmic when an enemy chokes my cutoff and then I go Close the Pocket on his meager forces comprising of MGs and Mortars only. That's stupid.

4 May 2022, 21:41 PM
#113
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1051

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2022, 15:18 PMnigo



+10000000


yeah I hope they start afresh in regards to a balance team for CoH3.
5 May 2022, 06:00 AM
#114
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3474 | Subs: 1

Modding team balancing the game on 1vs1 is a lie they used to help us swallow the pill, they balanced the game from an Arranged Team perspective for their own benefit. They just had a validation step with top 1vs1 players so their changes wouldn't impact much. But it did have an impact since they took the lead 2 factions dominate the others.

9 May 2022, 13:16 PM
#115
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1183

jump backJump back to quoted post4 May 2022, 21:41 PMGrim


yeah I hope they start afresh in regards to a balance team for CoH3.


I hope so too
3 Jun 2022, 22:59 PM
#116
avatar of SturmtigerCobra
Patrion 310

Posts: 916 | Subs: 11

My form of protest: Don't support any 1v1 content. Don't watch it on Youtube, don't talk about it, don't share it, don't sub to those Youtubers. That's what I do to protest. 1v1s balancing ruined team games. This game doesn't need an esports scene, just balance it to keep it fresh instead of boring as it is now.

I hear you. The trouble is a vocal minority (usual competitive players) gets more attention.
This happens to the detriment of CoHs financial success and casuals leaving the game.

Hardcore 1vs1 players simply do not make RTS financially successful. In short, casual/average players make the RTS money.

CoH teamplay is far superior to Starcraft 2.
SC 2 devs have been pretty transparent in interviews about their mistakes to focus solely on 1vs1. The info is out there for those who do the research.
Personally, I enjoy 1vs1 tournaments but I also recognize it's kinda a dying dinosaur outside Starcraft.

Silver lining?
A wise man said; an error does not become a mistake until one refuse to correct it. With that in mind, perhaps there is still hope for CoH3.

StarCraft 2's Rollercoaster Decade, As Remembered By Its Developers;
https://www.usgamer.net/articles/starcraft-2-anniversary-interview-blizzard
The accepted wisdom is that MOBAs badly hurt the RTS competitive scene with their accessibility, team-based play, etc. Was there anything StarCraft 2 could have done to retain its initial momentum?

Ryan Schutter, Designer: Let me preface my answer to this by saying I was not a developer on StarCraft 2 at the time. I was just a player, modder, and fan in a totally different career so this is from my perspective outside of Blizzard and the StarCraft 2 team.

Besides the popularity of MOBAs, the rise of the free-to-play model came about at the same time. I think both had an impact on the perception of StarCraft 2 and its success at the time. But I think that was where the real harm was done, the perception, not the reality. I think StarCraft 2 remained fairly consistent overall, and that MOBAs actually really did a lot not just attracting RTS players, or existing players in general, but also bringing in new players who had not played too many competitive video games at all.

StarCraft 2 continued to chug along with a huge playerbase, and tons of support from Blizzard. As you mentioned, perhaps momentum was impacted, but I think StarCraft 2, and in particular the feeling of mechanical skill requirement hanging over its competitive multiplayer, and the mentality that hardcore 1v1 ladder was the "correct" way to play the game, was always going to have less broad appeal than something like a MOBA. The "ladder anxiety" people feel playing the game is very real as well, and I think playing a team game relieves a lot of that pressure regardless of whether it is a MOBA or something else.

I think if back then StarCraft 2 had something like its Co-op Missions mode that it has now, or perhaps something even more robust, it would have gone a long way to feel like a more welcoming and accessible game. I believe that could have had a real impact, but we'll never know for sure. At the end of the day I think if StarCraft 2 was not the game that it is, there would be a huge hole in competitive games in general. I think a competitive 1v1 game like StarCraft 2 has its own kind of players and following, and I am so proud of what the game is for that community.
3 Jun 2022, 23:31 PM
#117
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1482


I hear you. The trouble is a vocal minority (usual competitive players) gets more attention.
This happens to the detriment of CoHs financial success and casuals leaving the game.

Hardcore 1vs1 players simply do not make RTS financially successful. In short, casual/average players make the RTS money.

CoH teamplay is far superior to Starcraft 2.
SC 2 devs have been pretty transparent in interviews about their mistakes to focus solely on 1vs1. The info is out there for those who do the research.
Personally, I enjoy 1vs1 tournaments but I also recognize it's kinda a dying dinosaur outside Starcraft.

Silver lining?
A wise man said; an error does not become a mistake until one refuse to correct it. With that in mind, perhaps there is still hope for CoH3.

StarCraft 2's Rollercoaster Decade, As Remembered By Its Developers;
https://www.usgamer.net/articles/starcraft-2-anniversary-interview-blizzard


Well written. I never understood why people balance around 1v1s. Sure, it's the easiest and most linear, with the least factors. But it's also the most boring and serves as a deterrent to most players. You could easily balance it out just by listening to the community as a whole. And mind you that there were many good advices on how to balance it out. By players that play axis mostly, or allies mostly, or both. Plenty of good advices.
You get the perspective of an allied player, of an axis player, and then you see what's what.
I mean, a simple unit such as grens went through so many changes, and ended up being absolutely solid and good at start, and becoming great with the LMG. Pair it with an MG that has such a wide arc, and a mortar that is the best in it's class, you'd think that for those pros, they'd have a weaker mechanical arsenal. But nope, stock tanks are great as well. Mix up the fact that on most maps, a single MG42 can deny a whole area... you get the current balance that revolves around Sov vs Ost.
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