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coh3 cry thread

7 Dec 2021, 08:59 AM
#1
7 Dec 2021, 14:39 PM
#2
avatar of le12ro

Posts: 23

We're all looking forward for the next public play :)
14 Dec 2021, 18:56 PM
#3
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1801 | Subs: 1

Kind of off-topic, but since it's an emotional thread already, how do you people feel about CoH3, after the disaster of DoW3?

I have not played CoH2 in like, 4 years, maybe more and we know Relic has been having a rough time. What is the general "feel" of the community? I'm asking about the "feelings" since it's an alpha.
14 Dec 2021, 22:26 PM
#4
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 353

As long as they spend more than 1 year developing Coh3 then it should be okay. They announced and developed Dow3 within a year-ish.

Plus most of the top-level peopled involved with Dow3 are not in senior positions with Coh3. Mainly the game director who is now a narrative lead for AoE4. The producers are gone too, at least according to the wiki. Dow3 had seriously bad management which turned out to be the mess that it was. None of producers or game directors had the experience to be fully leading a game. Especially not a titan of a game that was DoW3 with 2 great games behind it. It was quite clear that everyone involved leading Dow3 was only in it to 'pump and dump' the game because they had no intention of making a good game, only releasing a game.

Its a shame too because both Dow1 and Dow2 were great additions to the series. All they had to do was remake one instead of innovating and then not playtesting their game when it proved to be a dumb model and un-fun. Dow2 is my all-time favourite especially with heroes and wargear upgrades and 3 tech levels. I thought it was a good system until they stopped balancing it and then I had to move over to Elite Mod.

I hope they bring back Dow4 with the next IP they decide to contract. Perhaps right after Coh3, DoW4 might come.
15 Dec 2021, 14:03 PM
#5
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1076

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Dec 2021, 18:56 PMRMMLz
Kind of off-topic, but since it's an emotional thread already, how do you people feel about CoH3, after the disaster of DoW3?

I have not played CoH2 in like, 4 years, maybe more and we know Relic has been having a rough time. What is the general "feel" of the community? I'm asking about the "feelings" since it's an alpha.


My honest opinion (and this is pure speculation mind you)

1. The only population COH2 has at this moment is 60-70% veterans, who have been playing it for over 2 years. So it is only natural to like anything new COH-like. Those people will say they are excited about COH3 even if it is a shitty game.
2. The rest of the players of COH2 are 10% normies and 20% hardcore fans which play the game for over 5-7 years. For them (like me), COH3 is a cautionary tale with good probabilities of success.
3. What actual normies believe of this game, I have no idea.
16 Dec 2021, 17:03 PM
#6
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2838 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Dec 2021, 18:56 PMRMMLz
Kind of off-topic, but since it's an emotional thread already, how do you people feel about CoH3, after the disaster of DoW3?

I have not played CoH2 in like, 4 years, maybe more and we know Relic has been having a rough time. What is the general "feel" of the community? I'm asking about the "feelings" since it's an alpha.

From what I saw in the alphas (didn't play an awful lot of actual multiplayer against humans), let's say I am somewhat hopeful for the game.
CoH3 solves quite some issues that CoH2 has either due to design or engine limitations. I think Relic really understood that they need to build on a good core rather than having just an "okay" one and add a lot of features.

I have some issues with the game regarding immersion, UI and visuals, which might be fixed in the upcoming months until release. At least I hope so.

I don't care that much about actual unit balance at the moment (in the sense of unit X is OP). These are the "easiest" changes to do regarding the actual time frame. At least quicker than implementing a whole new shader system, reworking the UI or whatnot. Also, it is safe to say that balance will change after release, while many design decision that they already made and will make in the future will last, even if we don't like them.
17 Dec 2021, 09:05 AM
#7
avatar of didimegadudu

Posts: 63

the ui seems too cartoony to be taken seriously
17 Dec 2021, 09:14 AM
#8
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 1

the ui seems too cartoony to be taken seriously


i take it seriously
19 Dec 2021, 19:52 PM
#9
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 1

As long as they spend more than 1 year developing Coh3 then it should be okay. They announced and developed Dow3 within a year-ish.

Plus most of the top-level peopled involved with Dow3 are not in senior positions with Coh3. Mainly the game director who is now a narrative lead for AoE4. The producers are gone too, at least according to the wiki. Dow3 had seriously bad management which turned out to be the mess that it was. None of producers or game directors had the experience to be fully leading a game. Especially not a titan of a game that was DoW3 with 2 great games behind it. It was quite clear that everyone involved leading Dow3 was only in it to 'pump and dump' the game because they had no intention of making a good game, only releasing a game.

Its a shame too because both Dow1 and Dow2 were great additions to the series. All they had to do was remake one instead of innovating and then not playtesting their game when it proved to be a dumb model and un-fun. Dow2 is my all-time favourite especially with heroes and wargear upgrades and 3 tech levels. I thought it was a good system until they stopped balancing it and then I had to move over to Elite Mod.

I hope they bring back Dow4 with the next IP they decide to contract. Perhaps right after Coh3, DoW4 might come.

dont't forget the general aesthetics and sound design of that game.
My problem with it something few people will understand: there are so many special abilities that every single unit glows and shines somehow with a magic mist surrounding it which is an absolute turnoff for me
20 Dec 2021, 13:18 PM
#10
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1076



i take it seriously


based reply.
20 Dec 2021, 15:53 PM
#11
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1801 | Subs: 1


From what I saw in the alphas (didn't play an awful lot of actual multiplayer against humans), let's say I am somewhat hopeful for the game.
CoH3 solves quite some issues that CoH2 has either due to design or engine limitations. I think Relic really understood that they need to build on a good core rather than having just an "okay" one and add a lot of features.

I have some issues with the game regarding immersion, UI and visuals, which might be fixed in the upcoming months until release. At least I hope so.

I don't care that much about actual unit balance at the moment (in the sense of unit X is OP). These are the "easiest" changes to do regarding the actual time frame. At least quicker than implementing a whole new shader system, reworking the UI or whatnot. Also, it is safe to say that balance will change after release, while many design decision that they already made and will make in the future will last, even if we don't like them.


This is such a relief to hear! Especially about the engine limitations and the mess it was. Thanks!
I also watched some streams mostly, and balance can always be achieved IF the engine is capable of doing so (For example in the case of tanks having the same forward speed as they do in reverse, things like this).

And I also admire Relic's confidence you know. Just showing a Pre-Alpha takes some courage.
20 Dec 2021, 15:58 PM
#12
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1801 | Subs: 1



My honest opinion (and this is pure speculation mind you)

1. The only population COH2 has at this moment is 60-70% veterans, who have been playing it for over 2 years. So it is only natural to like anything new COH-like. Those people will say they are excited about COH3 even if it is a shitty game.
2. The rest of the players of COH2 are 10% normies and 20% hardcore fans which play the game for over 5-7 years. For them (like me), COH3 is a cautionary tale with good probabilities of success.
3. What actual normies believe of this game, I have no idea.


I agree. Even data suggests this. A lot, and I mean A LOT of people buy these games for the single-player experience. RTS, especially the Relic formula, is niche. They need some sort of a hook in terms of the single-player for the "Normies" to be financially viable.

We shit on Relic a lot but they have been supporting CoH2 even for years, and they are trying to please both sides. I agree that we as long-time players are always "excited" for anything, and trust me "normies" like any kind of competently made RTS (In terms of technical issues and visual design) that is in WWII.

What I mean by my question were the technical state and the "possibilities". I should have been clearer, however, but apparently, people believe that they are doing this with a good engine with much fewer limitations which makes long-term maintenance of the game more convenient.

I have not played CoH 2 in like... 4 years (God I am getting old), but I feel like the way you do.
20 Dec 2021, 16:45 PM
#13
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1076

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Dec 2021, 15:58 PMRMMLz


I agree. Even data suggests this. A lot, and I mean A LOT of people buy these games for the single-player experience. RTS, especially the Relic formula, is niche. They need some sort of a hook in terms of the single-player for the "Normies" to be financially viable.

We shit on Relic a lot but they have been supporting CoH2 even for years, and they are trying to please both sides. I agree that we as long-time players are always "excited" for anything, and trust me "normies" like any kind of competently made RTS (In terms of technical issues and visual design) that is in WWII.

What I mean by my question were the technical state and the "possibilities". I should have been clearer, however, but apparently, people believe that they are doing this with a good engine with much fewer limitations which makes long-term maintenance of the game more convenient.

I have not played CoH 2 in like... 4 years (God I am getting old), but I feel like the way you do.


I agree. Relic is a good company. They make some shitty moves, but I cannot imagine my life without COH2, which they could easily just shut down.
21 Dec 2021, 21:53 PM
#14
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 353


dont't forget the general aesthetics and sound design of that game.
My problem with it something few people will understand: there are so many special abilities that every single unit glows and shines somehow with a magic mist surrounding it which is an absolute turnoff for me


If I were to guess, the bad design was probably due to the heavy handed producers and top-level management for DoW3. Actually I don't even have to guess because the glassdoor reviews after Dow3 launch were really telling with what happened with Dow3.

If you look on the credits of DoW3, you can see that the main producer is now at another company while the director is back to a narrative lead.

Who would have thought that people who don't play video games make bad video games.

Dow3 Director: Philippe Boulle
Now: Narrative lead for AoE4

Dow3 Senior Producer: Lee McKinnon Pederson
Now: Senior/Executive Producer at Blackbird Entertainment

22 Dec 2021, 10:38 AM
#15
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1801 | Subs: 1



If I were to guess, the bad design was probably due to the heavy handed producers and top-level management for DoW3. Actually I don't even have to guess because the glassdoor reviews after Dow3 launch were really telling with what happened with Dow3.

If you look on the credits of DoW3, you can see that the main producer is now at another company while the director is back to a narrative lead.

Who would have thought that people who don't play video games make bad video games.

Dow3 Director: Philippe Boulle
Now: Narrative lead for AoE4

Dow3 Senior Producer: Lee McKinnon Pederson
Now: Senior/Executive Producer at Blackbird Entertainment




Exactly. I remember those Glassdoor reviews. Top tier management wanted a game to please everyone (mUh bRoaDeR AudIEnCe) and basically ruined everything.

This never works. Just ask DICE with the new Battlefield... or any other game that tried to please everyone.
22 Dec 2021, 13:33 PM
#16
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1076

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2021, 10:38 AMRMMLz



Exactly. I remember those Glassdoor reviews. Top tier management wanted a game to please everyone (mUh bRoaDeR AudIEnCe) and basically ruined everything.

This never works. Just ask DICE with the new Battlefield... or any other game that tried to please everyone.


THIS. Never try to please normies, they end up hating you.
27 Dec 2021, 20:04 PM
#17
avatar of Vermillion_Hawk

Posts: 138

The thing about that Glassdoor review for Dawn of War 3 was that, on the one hand, the reviewer was saying Relic didn't know what the players wanted, but on the other hand they were also saying that RTS is a dying genre and basically saying Relic shouldn't be making RTS games and management was stuck in the past. So it's not as damning as people think.

For my part, I think Dawn of War 3 was one of Relic's best-designed RTS games and it was an absolute pleasure to play, the difficulty with it was a poorly thought-out MOBA-style main mode for multiplayer and a lack of some of the singleplayer features that made Dawn of War 2 popular. I would honestly much rather be playing Dawn of War 3, it was far more modular and entertaining than Company of Heroes 1 or 2, but Relic doomed it with their poor decisions and abandoned it rather than fixing its main issues.

Company of Heroes 3 honestly looks pretty terrible right now from a design perspective, so many things carried over nonsensically from the first game (economic upgrades/manpower income, buying veterancy, zombie squads, etc.) and Frankenstein-ed together with design features from the second game. I'm not hopeful that Relic will pick up the slack on this one especially given that they're consulting with their schizophrenic and frankly idiotic playerbase.
28 Dec 2021, 07:46 AM
#18
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 1



Company of Heroes 3 honestly looks pretty terrible right now from a design perspective, so many things carried over nonsensically from the first game (economic upgrades/manpower income, buying veterancy, zombie squads, etc.)



Budwise


basilone




28 Dec 2021, 11:05 AM
#19
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1076

The thing about that Glassdoor review for Dawn of War 3 was that, on the one hand, the reviewer was saying Relic didn't know what the players wanted, but on the other hand they were also saying that RTS is a dying genre and basically saying Relic shouldn't be making RTS games and management was stuck in the past. So it's not as damning as people think.

For my part, I think Dawn of War 3 was one of Relic's best-designed RTS games and it was an absolute pleasure to play, the difficulty with it was a poorly thought-out MOBA-style main mode for multiplayer and a lack of some of the singleplayer features that made Dawn of War 2 popular. I would honestly much rather be playing Dawn of War 3, it was far more modular and entertaining than Company of Heroes 1 or 2, but Relic doomed it with their poor decisions and abandoned it rather than fixing its main issues.

Company of Heroes 3 honestly looks pretty terrible right now from a design perspective, so many things carried over nonsensically from the first game (economic upgrades/manpower income, buying veterancy, zombie squads, etc.) and Frankenstein-ed together with design features from the second game. I'm not hopeful that Relic will pick up the slack on this one especially given that they're consulting with their schizophrenic and frankly idiotic playerbase.


Eh, not so much as you make it out to be.

COH3 basically takes the mechanics of COH1 and the style of COH2, which by itself is ok with me. That said, zombie vehicles, manpower sectors, buying vet will all need some getting used to.
28 Dec 2021, 18:54 PM
#20
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 964 | Subs: 1

I would really like to hear from people who says "nothing new", what actually "new" relic should have brought into the franchise?

*Garrisons problem is adressed.
*Side armor impemented, changing armor play completly.
*Dowgraded CoH2 terriroty points replaced with supperior vCoH points, keep QoL style of CoH2 capping.
*Commander system is a pefect mix between CoH2 and vCoH, taking best from both.
*Completly new cover modifier, which changes how the maps can be played.
*New destruction system (which looks ugly af right now), which allows to move where destroyed building was.
*All 4 factions (probably) having proper unit roster, instead of vCoH\CoH2 formula of "2 factions are actually designed good, other faction rely on gimmics".
*Factions having proper side-grades, which are actually impactfull and not just an "artifisial way to delay teching" like in CoH2.
*Non stock panther.
*The fact that units in the game are actually made of different parts and they are not fully pre-made models. Meaning that either relic\modders for instance can just take helmet from one model, body from the other, pants from the third and have completly new unit, without relying on any 3D software. This leads to the fact that Relic can more officently push new content, aswell as even without full mod support modders will have their hands untied a bit.
Fun Fact: Do you know why Black Prince had wrong hull? Because it utilizes this system, Relic just used turret model with churchull hull model.

So what new do you want? I think this can only be applyed to the fact that we will be again having USF\UKF vs double german factions, but I honestly dont care about it as long as the game is good.
Not to mention, that german\us\uk troops have a plethora of possible units which CoH never had.

What I want from CoH3 is to have all the good stuff from both vCoH\CoH2 and have game which utilizes the best from both games. I dont want to see melee combat or ability to breach tanks and why not.
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