Login

russian armor

JP4 performance

PAGES (8)down
1 Oct 2021, 13:54 PM
#41
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Never really understood the armor on the JP4. It's a 60 range TD with a relatively small target size and it gets 160HP at vet 2 like you mentioned. Why does it need the armor?

I don't think it's horribly gamebreaking or anything, just find it confusing
. The understand the armour you have to reflect on the original design of OKW. their armour was all durable to help offset thier slowed income. If the jp4 was your only vehicle, getting swarmed by t34s could be devistating. Durability to be able to get the 5 levels of vet was a hallmark, even the lights were above average durabilty- T70 and Stuart were 320HP but the Luchs was 400, iirc the Stuka was 320,and the on top of everything else has smoke.

OKW didn't have a snare at launch either so the durability on a casemate makes sense in that regard too.
1 Oct 2021, 13:59 PM
#42
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

. The understand the armour you have to reflect on the original design of OKW. their armour was all durable to help offset thier slowed income. If the jp4 was your only vehicle, getting swarmed by t34s could be devistating. Durability to be able to get the 5 levels of vet was a hallmark, even the lights were above average durabilty- T70 and Stuart were 320HP but the Luchs was 400, iirc the Stuka was 320,and the on top of everything else has smoke.

OKW didn't have a snare at launch either so the durability on a casemate makes sense in that regard too.

That is correct, but the tech changes also created another issue. JP was a T1 so it was expensive but when it was moved to T4 and had additional tech cost and other unit to compete with it did nto received a discount.

So currently its price/pop/XP value are too high for TDs vs mediums.
1 Oct 2021, 18:35 PM
#43
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Oct 2021, 13:59 PMVipper

JP was a T1 so it was expensive but when it was moved to T4 and had additional tech cost and other unit to compete with it did nto received a discount.

So currently its price/pop/XP value are too high for TDs vs mediums.

Considering their fuel income used to be handicapped it didn't need a discount. The JP4 is not overpriced at all, your own comparison even shows that. It's BARELY more expensive then the su85 while having much better survivability (and yes that does matter)

. The understand the armour you have to reflect on the original design of OKW.

Fair enough, cause the original design of OKW didn't make any sense either
1 Oct 2021, 18:46 PM
#44
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2021, 23:49 PMVipper

or
you agree with me that JP4 durability does not mean much:

most other TDs can penetrate it frontally, and most medium tank can flank and penetrate it rear armor.

that's just not true on so many levels. I've seen so many failed attepts of flanking jp4 with t34-76, it's ridiculous. Seen in my games, seen it in top level casts. And if you think armor is none issue, then lets reduce it to 140 and remove scaling.

Also notion that +160Hp does not mean much is bonkers, especially if you consider that fact that people use it to brawl with other TDs.

The unit is fine. Not meta, but definitely useful in some situations.
1 Oct 2021, 20:15 PM
#45
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


that's just not true on so many levels. I've seen so many failed attepts of flanking jp4 with t34-76, it's ridiculous. Seen in my games, seen it in top level casts.

And there should be an equal number of failed attempt to flank SU-85 since the has better mobility.


And if you think armor is none issue, then lets reduce it to 140 and remove scaling.

I am ahead of you:
jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2021, 22:03 PMVipper

Great lets "nerf" it then and adjust the other stat accordingly. Lets lower its armor to 140 and the price to 320/110, pop 12 and XP value 1600.

And pls fix the camo, the unit does not fire half the time it is cloaked.




Also notion that +160Hp does not mean much is bonkers, especially if you consider that fact that people use it to brawl with other TDs.

I said armor does not count much not HP, and hate to have to point out that the extra HP comes with veterancy.

As is JP will already has a better chance to win a slug fest with any TD even at vet 0.


The unit is fine. Not meta, but definitely useful in some situations.

Since you disagree with OP that JP is "either OP or at least very close to it" and "this thing is amazing" I am not sure why you choose to argue with me and not with him instead.
Vaz
2 Oct 2021, 04:15 AM
#46
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1158

In cases where you are bouncing so many shots, the armor pretty much acts the same as additional HP. Look at the p4 that bounced off the 4 m57 AP shells. If it kept sitting there and the next 4 went in, it's essentially double the hp. This is why when we have a discussion on the durability of something, we have to be cautious to mention penetrating hits, because some of these vehicles can really laugh in the face of certain destruction.
2 Oct 2021, 07:46 AM
#47
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Oct 2021, 20:15 PMVipper

Since you disagree with OP that JP is "either OP or at least very close to it" and "this thing is amazing" I am not sure why you choose to argue with me and not with him instead.

1) it was sarcasm. 12 pop cheap 60 range TD with 45 sight and low target size is a bad idea
2) because you post ridiculous stuff.
2 Oct 2021, 09:04 AM
#48
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


1) it was sarcasm. 12 pop cheap 60 range TD with 45 sight and low target size is a bad idea

Funny that you did not mention armor, so it seem that you agree with my actual point.

Armor is very important for brawling tanks less important long range TDs.

By your own description thou SU-76 should be had been OP because has a Pop 8, is cheap, has a range of 60, used be to able get a sight of 49 with tracking (all around I might add, plus mini map info) and target size of 20.


2) because you post ridiculous stuff.

Yet you failed to prove that what I post is not true. Now pls stop with forum warrior mentality and keep the focus on what has actually been posted instead of shifting the focus on me.
2 Oct 2021, 10:32 AM
#49
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 09:04 AMVipper

Funny that you did not mention armor, so it seem that you agree with my actual point.

Armor is very important for brawling tanks less important long range TDs.

By your own description thou SU-76 should be had been OP because has a Pop 8, is cheap, has a range of 60, used be to able get a sight of 49 with tracking (all around I might add, plus mini map info) and target size of 20.

su76 has crap chance to penetrate axis medium and heavy armor, while having low damage. JP4 can penetrate 100% of stock roster of SOV and USF.

That's what I meant by "posting ridiculous stuff".

2 Oct 2021, 10:37 AM
#50
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


su76 has crap chance to penetrate axis medium and heavy armor, while having low damage. JP4 can penetrate 100% of stock roster of SOV and USF.

That's what I meant by "posting ridiculous stuff".



And again you simply confirm my point, people who complain about that SU-76 complain about the gun and not about that fact that is has lower armor than Stug III.

In sort the gun is more important than the armor for 60 range TD.

Now in your opinion is that "ridiculous"? because if it is you are "posting ridiculous stuff".

(and by the way SU-76 has 88% chance to penetrate a PzIV at max range so you might want to reconsider your definition of "crap")
2 Oct 2021, 11:14 AM
#51
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 10:37 AMVipper


And again you simply confirm my point, people who complain about that SU-76 complain about the gun and not about that fact that is has lower armor than Stug III.


12 pop cheap 60 range TD with 45 sight and low target size is a bad idea

It is 15 pop and 135 fuel now. You build 2 JP4 after your "nerf" and you save 6 pop and 50 fuel compared to what it is now. So what you proposed is OP af.


2 Oct 2021, 11:15 AM
#52
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 10:37 AMVipper


And again you simply confirm my point, people who complain about that SU-76 complain about the gun and not about that fact that is has lower armor than Stug III.

In sort the gun is more important than the armor for 60 range TD.

Now in your opinion is that "ridiculous"? because if it is you are "posting ridiculous stuff".

(and by the way SU-76 has 88% chance to penetrate a PzIV at max range so you might want to reconsider your definition of "crap")


People dont talk about the lower armour of the su76 compared to the armour of the stug cuz the su76 has 10 more range and is 25 fuel cheaper.
Also allied armour values with few exceptions are already lower and axis can mostly pen every stock alled vehicle with ease so people accept it and dont complain.

The su76 can pen the ost p4 88% of the time. The vet 2 p4/okw p4 and Anything bigger and chance is 68% at best. Not that it is imbalanced or up but it still isent great pen for the late game. Just the su76 's timing just doesnt excist since the lv fase is tiny and the su76 provides what su dont need at that timing.
2 Oct 2021, 11:55 AM
#53
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



It is 15 pop and 135 fuel now. You build 2 JP4 after your "nerf" and you save 6 pop and 50 fuel compared to what it is now. So what you proposed is OP af.

But it would have 40% less armor than it currently has and yet according to you it would from fine to OP.

And that proves my point that armor is not "game deciding" as Vaz claimed for a 60 range case mate TD.

And since we have now established that the gun is more important than armor why is JP4 more expensive than SU-85 since SU-85 has a superior gun?
2 Oct 2021, 11:58 AM
#54
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



People dont talk about the lower armour of the su76 compared to the armour of the stug cuz the su76 has 10 more range and is 25 fuel cheaper.
Also allied armour values with few exceptions are already lower and axis can mostly pen every stock alled vehicle with ease so people accept it and dont complain.

The su76 can pen the ost p4 88% of the time. The vet 2 p4/okw p4 and Anything bigger and chance is 68% at best. Not that it is imbalanced or up but it still isent great pen for the late game. Just the su76 's timing just doesnt excist since the lv fase is tiny and the su76 provides what su dont need at that timing.

In sort you agree, that SU-76 does not have "crap" chance to penetrate "axis medium and heavy armor" as Klement Pikhtura claims.
2 Oct 2021, 12:35 PM
#55
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1



People dont talk about the lower armour of the su76 compared to the armour of the stug cuz the su76 has 10 more range and is 25 fuel cheaper.
Also allied armour values with few exceptions are already lower and axis can mostly pen every stock alled vehicle with ease so people accept it and dont complain.

The su76 can pen the ost p4 88% of the time. The vet 2 p4/okw p4 and Anything bigger and chance is 68% at best. Not that it is imbalanced or up but it still isent great pen for the late game. Just the su76 's timing just doesnt excist since the lv fase is tiny and the su76 provides what su dont need at that timing.


90-75 =15 25


2 Oct 2021, 13:02 PM
#56
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 11:55 AMVipper

But it would have 40% less armor than it currently has and yet according to you it would from fine to OP.

please don't put any words in my mouth. I said sarcastically to nerf armor, without any mention of price reduction. And I do think that armor is very useful, because

1) handheld AT
2) medium tanks
3) some AT guns

High armor is a part of the design of the unit, same with armor scaling. I'm OK with that design. End of the discussion.
2 Oct 2021, 13:18 PM
#57
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772



People dont talk about the lower armour of the su76 compared to the armour of the stug cuz the su76 has 10 more range and is 25 fuel cheaper.
Also allied armour values with few exceptions are already lower and axis can mostly pen every stock alled vehicle with ease so people accept it and dont complain.

The su76 can pen the ost p4 88% of the time. The vet 2 p4/okw p4 and Anything bigger and chance is 68% at best. Not that it is imbalanced or up but it still isent great pen for the late game. Just the su76 's timing just doesnt excist since the lv fase is tiny and the su76 provides what su dont need at that timing.

Pretty sure he knows all that. He just picks a single example to reinforce his point and multiply other's point by 0. He disregarded P4J, vet2 P4H, Sturmpanzer, Panther and KT, which are all stock vehicles. As if comparing su76 to JP4 was not ridiculous enough.
2 Oct 2021, 13:37 PM
#58
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


please don't put any words in my mouth. I said sarcastically to nerf armor, without any mention of price reduction. And I do think that armor is very useful, because

1) handheld AT
2) medium tanks
3) some AT guns

High armor is a part of the design of the unit, same with armor scaling. I'm OK with that design.

So do you agree with Vaz that "game deciding" ?

1) is ones lets hand held 35 range weapon near a 60 range TD the he is probably doing something wrong

2) if JP will beat any medium that attack frontally even if is had 140 armor

3) Does make a difference for ATG.

Now what in your opinion would be a fair price for JP if it armor was lowered to 140?


Pretty sure he knows all that. He just picks a single example to reinforce his point and multiply other's point by 0. He disregarded P4J, vet2 P4H, Sturmpanzer, Panther and KT, which are all stock vehicles. As if comparing su76 to JP4 was not ridiculous enough.

PLS stop lying in order to discredit me. I did not compare the SU-76 with JP4, I compared the SU-76 with the Stug and used as an analogy.

Now pls answer a simply question would you consider lowering JP4 armor to 140 while increasing its penetration 240/230/220 a buff or nerf?

End of the discussion.

And one final advice if you do not want to debate with me then my advice to you is don't quote me and claim that my point are "ridiculous".
2 Oct 2021, 14:41 PM
#60
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 13:37 PMVipper

Now pls answer a simply question would you consider lowering JP4 armor to 140 while increasing its penetration 240/230/220 a buff or nerf?

It's gonna be OP, because not only armor makes JP special FYI.
PAGES (8)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

395 users are online: 3 members and 392 guests
Farlon, empirescurropt, immogutachteressen
12 posts in the last 24h
38 posts in the last week
92 posts in the last month
Registered members: 44643
Welcome our newest member, Leiliqu96
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM