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Why the British should start with Engineers

22 Jul 2021, 13:22 PM
#21
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 211



Again, invest for rak, UKF paid 260 mp + 5 fuel + 60 muni for UC. Just kill it with rak. Even if UKF did not go for AEC, it's their lose.

OKW saying "I don't wanna pay rat just to kill UC" is a 100% pure whining


You are talking like the UC is a free kill with the raketen. Have you ever used that unit against small target size vehicles? Getting 2 consecutive hits is a miracle worth sacrificing 5 dollars to relic.



Please say this after playing UKF 100 matchups and you didn't get any kind of cancer.


I only played with recovery sappers into commandos in 2vs2 and that was quite fun. Anyway both UKF winrates in 1vs1 and 2vs2 (since last patch) indicate that Brits are balanced and more or less competitive.
Top 200 1vs1 OKW vs UKF is 50%/50%. Under the assumption that every Top 200 players knows how to deal (more or less) with UKF/OKW and that your sentiment is right "JLIs are a free win", it seems like that every OKW game without JLIs is an auto loss :ph34r:

22 Jul 2021, 13:56 PM
#22
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 764

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jul 2021, 13:22 PMGeblobt


You are talking like the UC is a free kill with the raketen. Have you ever used that unit against small target size vehicles? Getting 2 consecutive hits is a miracle worth sacrificing 5 dollars to relic.

60% chance to hit (0.04*15=0.6), and that's at far range, meaning that chances are higher the closer rack is to Carrier. So it makes UC's movements problematic and its transition into static green cover a matter of time. Also it is very rare for UC to be unscratched and if it loses 80 HP to small arms, HMG or ate a faust - 1 shot is enough to finish it.
22 Jul 2021, 14:08 PM
#23
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 211


60% chance to hit (0.04*15=0.6), and that's at far range, meaning that chances are higher the closer rack is to Carrier. So it makes UC's movements problematic and its transition into static green cover a matter of time. Also it is very rare for UC to be unscratched and if it loses 80 HP to small arms, HMG or ate a faust - 1 shot is enough to finish it.


These stats matter maybe on the testrangemap, but not on real maps. Accuracy is only one part of the problem. The unit behaves similar to the old Sturmtiger. It hits everything from bushes to crates or even the ground.
Its almost hilarious.
22 Jul 2021, 16:34 PM
#24
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449


Again, invest for rak, UKF paid 260 mp + 5 fuel + 60 muni for UC. Just kill it with rak. Even if UKF did not go for AEC, it's their lose.

OKW saying "I don't wanna pay rat just to kill UC" is a 100% pure whining


60% chance to hit (0.04*15=0.6), and that's at far range, meaning that chances are higher the closer rack is to Carrier. So it makes UC's movements problematic and its transition into static green cover a matter of time. Also it is very rare for UC to be unscratched and if it loses 80 HP to small arms, HMG or ate a faust - 1 shot is enough to finish it.

You guys are missing the point. The point is that even if the UKF player does invest into a UC he will still have equal or superior mainline infantry presence because of the starting section that makes the Rak investment not worth it. Depending on how the fight is chosen, Volks and Sections are either equal or Volks get dumpstered, but never the other way around. Sometimes this isn't a problem if the OKW player can utilize his Sturms effectively, but when that's not possible it becomes a huge problem for him.

22 Jul 2021, 18:27 PM
#25
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 764

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jul 2021, 14:08 PMGeblobt


These stats matter maybe on the testrangemap, but not on real maps. Accuracy is only one part of the problem. The unit behaves similar to the old Sturmtiger. It hits everything from bushes to crates or even the ground.
Its almost hilarious.

every AT can hit cover and every AT hates elevation, this is not unique just to rak. Not saying it is the best AT, but you almost make it sound as if rak can't hit anything.

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jul 2021, 16:34 PMSpoof


You guys are missing the point. The point is that even if the UKF player does invest into a UC he will still have equal or superior mainline infantry presence because of the starting section that makes the Rak investment not worth it. Depending on how the fight is chosen, Volks and Sections are either equal or Volks get dumpstered, but never the other way around. Sometimes this isn't a problem if the OKW player can utilize his Sturms effectively, but when that's not possible it becomes a huge problem for him.


Well, kind of true, but once OKW survived the starting phase he can terrorize with flack HT+rak combo, which may force Brit into investing into their own AT.
22 Jul 2021, 18:51 PM
#26
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jul 2021, 16:34 PMSpoof


You guys are missing the point. The point is that even if the UKF player does invest into a UC he will still have equal or superior mainline infantry presence because of the starting section that makes the Rak investment not worth it. Depending on how the fight is chosen, Volks and Sections are either equal or Volks get dumpstered, but never the other way around. Sometimes this isn't a problem if the OKW player can utilize his Sturms effectively, but when that's not possible it becomes a huge problem for him.



Except the brit player doesn't have superior mainline infantry. Struggling vs brits without a carrier early on is a L2p issue. Volks+Sturm do fine. The problem is that they require early aggression which is something most people are really bad at so there is this myth about brits walking over OKW in the early game.
22 Jul 2021, 19:24 PM
#27
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jul 2021, 18:51 PMGiaA

Except the brit player doesn't have superior mainline infantry. Struggling vs brits without a carrier early on is a L2p issue. Volks+Sturm do fine. The problem is that they require early aggression which is something most people are really bad at so there is this myth about brits walking over OKW in the early game.

This is the first time I have heard someone say OKW is hard for people to learn. Do you mind clarifying what you mean by early aggression?
22 Jul 2021, 19:38 PM
#28
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

OKW is hard to master, not to pick up and comes with a bundle of forgiving tools (Rak, P-4J, etc). Most low level players do NOT push or fight appropriately, making VGs look like weak sauce (and Obers/Falls like gods upon earth). OKW gets a huge power spike with STGs, enabling them to rush IS. IS will lose fights till 5man + 1 Bren. It happens at the same time as either the Luchs or the Flak Halftrack enter the field. You have a window to body UKF till the AEC drops, and even then the Rak thoroughly controls the AEC.

From there, Obers will force UKF to get a tank which will be countered by double Rak

Want to have more fun? Open Elite Armor into 221, UKF lacks any good tools to counter that early LV aggression. Or am I missing something?

I'd love to start with REs, but the REs would need serious combat juicing to compensate. Make Vet1 apply without cover and allow them to but away the mine sweeper. They might need some additional straight combat stats to go with it. They could finally be a reasonable CQC squad, giving the AO someone to buff.

Or we could fix the Vickers suppression consistency problem, so the RE start could open like OST. But that isn't happening.

And we could give the Cromwell T-34/P-4 AoE, so it starts bleeding squads consistently. Also, not going to happen. It LOST 80dmg area when its AI was "fixed".

UKF is currently the worst 1v1 faction period by a significant margin. They have traditionally crutched on strong IS to compensate for... everything. They need everything else to take up the slack.
22 Jul 2021, 21:07 PM
#29
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jul 2021, 19:24 PMSpoof

This is the first time I have heard someone say OKW is hard for people to learn. Do you mind clarifying what you mean by early aggression?


Try to avoid long range fights, use sturms together with volks, NEVER let your sturm get caught on their own and shot down at long range, find weak spots to charge close range, force your opponent to focus the Sturms and then charge in with volks etc. It's hard to put into words because situations rarely repeat in CoH2 so you can't really make up general rules.
22 Jul 2021, 21:11 PM
#30
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 211

Most low level players do NOT push or fight appropriately, making VGs look like weak sauce (and Obers/Falls like gods upon earth). OKW gets a huge power spike with STGs, enabling them to rush IS. IS will lose fights till 5man + 1 Bren. It happens at the same time as either the Luchs or the Flak Halftrack enter the field. You have a window to body UKF till the AEC drops, and even then the Rak thoroughly controls the AEC.


5 Man Sections have the same dmg as STG! Volks at around range 17 and almost double their dmg at max range. So you have to close the distance to atleast range 15 to beat Sections in a 1vs1. On top of that they have superior rec acc on lvl 0,1 and 3. Volks get trashed by Sections. This isnt some myth or something.
You have to solve this issue with call in units. Or you try to drag the game to later stages somehow.

Sections are completely retarded. Decent 4 Man, way too powerful 5 Man, useless weapon upgrade, mediocre veterancy, no snare, dumb cover mechanic. This unit is neither fun to play nor fun to play against.
22 Jul 2021, 21:13 PM
#31
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jul 2021, 21:11 PMGeblobt


5 Man Sections have the same dmg as STG! Volks at around range 17 and almost double their dmg at max range. So you have to close the distance to atleast range 15 to beat Sections in a 1vs1. On top of that they have superior rec acc on lvl 0,1 and 3. Volks get trashed by Sections. This isnt some myth or something.
You have to solve this issue with call in units. Or you try to drag the game to later stages somehow.

Sections are completely retarded. Decent 4 Man, way too powerful 5 Man, useless weapon upgrade, mediocre veterancy, no snare, dumb cover mechanic. This unit is neither fun to play nor fun to play against.


He was talking about 4 men sections. 5 men setions are worth over a minute of fuel income plus the MP cost of an entire new infantry squad or MG. So in all fairness you have to at least add 1 MG34 into the equation.
22 Jul 2021, 21:19 PM
#32
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 211

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jul 2021, 21:13 PMGiaA


He was talking about 4 men sections. 5 men setions are worth over a minute of fuel income plus the MP cost of an entire new infantry squad or MG. So in all fairness you have to at least add 1 MG34 into the equation.


Youre right, but most (important) tech paths of brits are therefore cheaper to allow going for bolster without delaying your medium and aec is not needed vs okw anyway.
Mgs wouldnt be a problem, if Brits had a solid army roster and not this shitstain emplacement mechanic. Im so glad that Coh3 factions seems to be well crafted. Everyone has sniper, Arty tds, light vehicles, mgs, mortars etc.
22 Jul 2021, 21:22 PM
#33
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jul 2021, 21:19 PMGeblobt


Youre right, but most (important) tech paths of brits are therefore cheaper to allow going for bolster without delaying your medium and aec is not needed vs okw anyway.
Mgs wouldnt be a problem, if Brits had a solid army roster and not this shitstain emplacement mechanic. Im so glad that Coh3 factions seems to be well crafted. Everyone has sniper, Arty tds, light vehicles, mgs, mortars etc.


Agreed on the CoH3 factions. They actually have a variety of (theoretical) tech paths and access to all the basic tools (sometimes even multiple versions of it). Only thing I dont like is that brits don't seem to have a a sniper (not 100% sure)
22 Jul 2021, 21:33 PM
#34
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

Yea. COH3 Brits are way different, in a good way. Hallelujah. Give me my Gurkhas.
22 Jul 2021, 22:42 PM
#35
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1


every AT can hit cover and every AT hates elevation, this is not unique just to rak. Not saying it is the best AT, but you almost make it sound as if rak can't hit anything.


Well, kind of true, but once OKW survived the starting phase he can terrorize with flack HT+rak combo, which may force Brit into investing into their own AT.

RW tends to collide with terrain more than other ATGs.

That has probably to with the height that shot is being fired since the RW has it barrel closer to the ground.
23 Jul 2021, 00:09 AM
#36
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 471

I finally understand why UKF is nerfed to the ground.

Ppl are still arguing about how nerfed UC or IS is so strong. No wonder how it was back then.

OKW's such low WR in 1v1 is because of Soviet. Not because of UKF or even USF.
23 Jul 2021, 01:28 AM
#37
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 764

OKW's such low WR in 1v1 is because of Soviet. Not because of UKF or even USF.

49% WR vs SOV at top 200 and 51% WR whole ladder in 1v1 during last 2 weeks.
23 Jul 2021, 21:58 PM
#38
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 643



Honestly, I really don't see how people can still arguing nerf on current UKF. Makes me sick.


Most people that play this game tend to be bad and get their panties in a twist when Brits have anything decent.
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