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Why the British should start with Engineers

21 Jul 2021, 03:39 AM
#1
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

Now before I begin I would like to recognize that with CoH3 on the horizon none of what follows is really going to matter to CoH2. However, I would still like to create this thread in the interests of CoH3's balance and mechanics.

Admittedly, I am going to be writing this with bias as I am speaking from the perspective of an OKW player. However, I feel it is important enough that this should still be a topic of debate.

There are, from my observations, 3 main reasons why the UKF should start with Royal Engineers instead of the Infantry Section.

1. Solution to the UC Question

In my opinion the UC nerf after the winter patch was too severe. I rarely see it nowadays and it doesn't make too much sense why the base UC should have been hit that hard. Rather, the better solution would have been to nerf the UC's upgrades. However, making UKF start with Engineers rather than the IS presents another solution to the UC problem. With the British starting with engineers, the UC price nerf can be reverted and self-repair can be removed. This should make UCs viable again without being too powerful, as Engineers themselves aren't that strong and don't fight at long range the same way the UC and Infantry Sections do.

Why does this matter? First, it provides the British with another option. The British were seemingly designed as a faction with versatile opening choices like the Soviets, but versatility comes at a cost. A versatile opening can not be too efficient, as is the problem with the starting IS and UC. OKW and USF get powerful openings (USF gets the free 4th rifle squad with tech and OKW starts with Sturms and Raks), but mostly because they don't really have another option. UKF, on the other hand, has 3 options: Sections, the Vickers, and the IS. By replacing the starting IS with REs the UC's impact will not be as brutally efficient as it once was before in conjunction with Sections. The second reason is that it seems the UC is a vital unit in the context of British early game. The British seem to have few answers to MGs, which the UC was one of the few units that could provide an answer. Using a UC to unload an engineer squad behind an unprotected MG could provide British players with a better answer to MGs than they currently have now.

2. Greater accessibility to the features provided by engineers

Another major weakness of the British is their lack of snares. While the movement of engineers from T2 to T1 was obviously made in the interest of this factor, I don't believe there will be a problem at all with letting UKF start with a snaring squad. After all, they don't have that much to respond to LVs anyway, since they'll never realistically have enough REs to spam snares, which all other factions can in a pinch.

Furthermore, starting with engineers makes barbed wire, mines, minesweeping, and other engineering activities that are available to the other factions instantly more accessible. While no player is ever going to play a game without engineers, it makes mortar pits more accessible as well since players won't have to factor in the cost of the engineers needed to build the mortar pit.

Lastly, while this may seem insignificant at first, starting engineers provides UKF a stopgap solution to deal with close range units. REs have a respectable short range DPS for an engineer unit, and it is well known how poor Infantry Sections perform in close range combat. Again, as stated above, such a change provides UKF with more options, which seems to be the most important feature of their design.

3. Removes cheese

In my opinion the greatest frustration with UKF is their ability to hit critical mass extremely quickly because of their starting IS. A UKF player only needs to pay 270 * 3 = 810 MP to field 4 mainlines, while OKW needs 260 * 4 = 1040 MP (230 MP difference). A Wehr player needs 260 + 240 * 4 = 1220 MP to field 4 mainlines and an MG, while a UKF player only needs 260 + 270 * 3 MP = 1070 MP (150 MP difference) to field 4 mainlines and an MG. For a UKF player to field 5 mainlines, he only needs to pay 1080 MP, which is only 40 MP more than it costs OKW to field 4 mainlines. Lastly, for a UKF player to field 3 Infantry Sections and 2 MGs, a notoriously brutal combo against OKW, it will only cost him 2 * 270 + 2 * 260 MP, which is only 1060 MP, and which is only 20 MP more than it costs OKW to field 4 Volks. Granted, OKW does start with Sturmpioneers, but Sturmpioneers are nowhere near as important as an Infantry Section in the long run because Spios hit the wall hard after 5 minutes, while Infantry Sections scale significantly better than Spios. It is also important to consider that depending on the map and the context of the engagement, Sturmpioneers can be utterly useless against Sections who will murder them at long range if the Spios have no way to flank or no sightblockers to take advantage of. Furthermore, that extra infantry section also means extra sandbags around the map and more cover for the Brit player to abuse.

Lastly, starting with engineers can also solve the problem of British map control, as REs have 1.25x capture speed.

Now that I've said all this, I would likely to end by repeating that none of this actually matters to CoH2 as its time is coming. However, I hope whatever comes out of this thread can be applied to CoH3, allowing us to possibly to tone down all the frustrations that came with CoH2.
21 Jul 2021, 11:51 AM
#2
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 155

Im not sure what this change would even accomplish. If you want to get sappers to repair UC or do other stuff like mines, you can just build them as first oder second unit. Starting with sappers is combatwise worse than current Section. So whats the point of this change? Nerf Brits early game?

Im ok with this change if Brits get other things like stock land mattress/snare on sections, so Okw doesnt get dumbstered while Ukf is better overall. But this change alone seems worthless for me.
21 Jul 2021, 13:16 PM
#3
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2747

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2021, 03:39 AMSpoof


3. Removes cheese

In my opinion the greatest frustration with UKF is their ability to hit critical mass extremely quickly because of their starting IS. A UKF player only needs to pay 270 * 3 = 810 MP to field 4 mainlines, while OKW needs 260 * 4 = 1040 MP (230 MP difference). A Wehr player needs 260 + 240 * 4 = 1220 MP to field 4 mainlines and an MG, while a UKF player only needs 260 + 270 * 3 MP = 1070 MP (150 MP difference) to field 4 mainlines and an MG.


I dunno what the hell is wrong with your calculation.
OKW, where is your Sturmpio in the equation?
Ostheer, oh, stop, just one sniper and one Gren and shut up Brit early game.

Infantry Section are excellent in GREEN cover, in any case they are out of cover, means out of position, they will lose every engagement. That's mean, you don't fight them when they are in green cover. That's it.

For the sappers, just click it, they are here at T0 now.

Brit is already the hardest faction to play and you still want to nerf them?
21 Jul 2021, 13:18 PM
#4
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 254

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2021, 03:39 AMSpoof
In my opinion the UC nerf after the winter patch was too severe. I rarely see it nowadays


Well, every brit opponent I see opens with a UC and it is a severe pain in the ass. You may not see it that often if you only play with the allies ;). I main axis/OKW and often wonder why the UC is as cheap as it is.
21 Jul 2021, 13:21 PM
#5
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2747



Well, every brit opponent I see opens with a UC and it is a severe pain in the ass. You may not see it that often if you only play with the allies ;). I main axis/OKW and often wonder why the UC is as cheap as it is.


Get a Rakentenwerfer, 221 or 222?
I seldom see it survive past 7 minutes mark, I don't really like using it.
21 Jul 2021, 13:45 PM
#6
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 254

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2021, 13:21 PMPorygon


Get a Rakentenwerfer, 221 or 222?
I seldom see it survive past 7 minutes mark, I don't really like using it.


True, but it often hits the 10 kills mark before 7 minutes and on roads its pretty damn fast.
21 Jul 2021, 14:00 PM
#7
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2747



True, but it often hits the 10 kills mark before 7 minutes and on roads its pretty damn fast.


How about disengage it unless you are confident instant shutting down the UC?
21 Jul 2021, 14:07 PM
#8
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 254

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2021, 14:00 PMPorygon


How about disengage it unless you are confident instant shutting down the UC?


I think the OP really appriciates your concern about my gameplay :)
21 Jul 2021, 14:24 PM
#9
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 92

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2021, 03:39 AMSpoof
I am going to be writing this with bias as I am speaking from the perspective of an OKW player.
21 Jul 2021, 18:57 PM
#10
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1614

It will also allow for more fun builds, especially alternative mainline only builds
21 Jul 2021, 19:23 PM
#11
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2021, 13:16 PMPorygon

I dunno what the hell is wrong with your calculation.
OKW, where is your Sturmpio in the equation?

Read the rest of the post.
21 Jul 2021, 19:24 PM
#12
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2021, 14:24 PMKatukov

I'm not sure why your opinion should matter either. Also, this is a 1v1 thread, you may leave now.
21 Jul 2021, 19:37 PM
#13
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2021, 11:51 AMGeblobt
Im not sure what this change would even accomplish. If you want to get sappers to repair UC or do other stuff like mines, you can just build them as first oder second unit. Starting with sappers is combatwise worse than current Section. So whats the point of this change? Nerf Brits early game?

Yes. My whole argument in the 3rd section is that the Brits have too easy of a time getting a good army early composition early on. This change would slow them down.

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2021, 11:51 AMGeblobt

Im ok with this change if Brits get other things like stock land mattress/snare on sections, so Okw doesnt get dumbstered while Ukf is better overall. But this change alone seems worthless for me.

Frankly I don't mind these changes either. I think it's fine if the Brits become a strong, if not the strongest, late game faction in 1v1s. But I don't think it's fair for Brits to be able to completely shut out their opponent within 5 minutes of the game because of their starting mainlines which makes it way easier for them to field their main army.

I also wouldn't be opposed to a minor section buff either.
21 Jul 2021, 20:00 PM
#14
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2021, 13:21 PMPorygon

Get a Rakentenwerfer, 221 or 222?
I seldom see it survive past 7 minutes mark, I don't really like using it.

Get a Rak and lose the infantry game? No thanks, the Brit already got a free section in the beginning of the game that will only become more of a pain in the ass as the game progresses on.

221 and schu-mines are the best answers in the rare event that you do see a UC nowadays.
21 Jul 2021, 23:46 PM
#15
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 260

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2021, 20:00 PMSpoof

Get a Rak and lose the infantry game? No thanks, the Brit already got a free section in the beginning of the game that will only become more of a pain in the ass as the game progresses on.

221 and schu-mines are the best answers in the rare event that you do see a UC nowadays.



If you saw UC, that means opponent also invested mp & fuel for it. Getting a rak & destroying UC rather than getting bleed by a UC is a winning scenario.
I don't see why you are complaining.

I do think getting a 221 is a better option by the way because IS can't do xxxx to counter it.
22 Jul 2021, 10:10 AM
#16
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 155




If you saw UC, that means opponent also invested mp & fuel for it. Getting a rak & destroying UC rather than getting bleed by a UC is a winning scenario.
I don't see why you are complaining.

I do think getting a 221 is a better option by the way because IS can't do xxxx to counter it.


He is complaining cause volks auto lose on every range vs sections, so paying another 290mp for the slight chance to counter a 5 fuel vehicle is pretty painful. The brit player prolly doesnt even build the AEC, so you have just paid 290mp to have a useless unit for 20 mins. Makes the early game even more tough.
221/223 is nice to have vs section, but im fairly certain that a skilled UC player can deal with the 221/223, cause you have better dmg on long range (while paying 25 less fuel).
22 Jul 2021, 10:50 AM
#17
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 260

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jul 2021, 10:10 AMGeblobt


He is complaining cause volks auto lose on every range vs sections


Just upgrade stg & blob with JLI * 2. Gives you a free win vs UKF.

Honestly, I really don't see how people can still arguing nerf on current UKF. Makes me sick.
22 Jul 2021, 11:56 AM
#18
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 155



Just upgrade stg & blob with JLI * 2. Gives you a free win vs UKF.

Honestly, I really don't see how people can still arguing nerf on current UKF. Makes me sick.


I agree that JLI are broken vs Brits, but the base faction matchup is so screwed in favor of UKF that you have to abuse things like JLI or 221 to have the chance to compete and not get dumbstered in the first 10 mins.
Noone sane wants to nerf Brits, but on the other side noone wants to buff UKF. I rather have the current balance in 1vs1 and 2vs2 than having brits that can compete with Ost but shits on OKW on every lvl.
22 Jul 2021, 12:11 PM
#19
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 260

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jul 2021, 11:56 AMGeblobt

but on the other side noone wants to buff UKF. I rather have the current balance in 1vs1 and 2vs2 than having brits that can compete with Ost but shits on OKW on every lvl.


Please say this after playing UKF 100 matchups and you didn't get any kind of cancer.
22 Jul 2021, 12:17 PM
#20
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 260

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jul 2021, 11:56 AMGeblobt

but the base faction matchup is so screwed in favor of UKF that you have to abuse things like JLI or 221 to have the chance to compete and not get dumbstered in the first 10 mins.


Again, invest for rak, UKF paid 260 mp + 5 fuel + 60 muni for UC. Just kill it with rak. Even if UKF did not go for AEC, it's their lose.

OKW saying "I don't wanna pay rat just to kill UC" is a 100% pure whining
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