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russian armor

Something should be done about the dual atgun meta

30 Jun 2021, 22:23 PM
#21
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 193

I think the issue is the at guns are to mobile, they can easily reposition with the rest of the army. So I propose increasing there "pick up" time, that way if a flank is in the process of happening the user doesn't just pick up and go.
1 Jul 2021, 01:24 AM
#22
avatar of didimegadudu

Posts: 35

soviet zis needs to bring the number of crew to 4
1 Jul 2021, 01:28 AM
#23
avatar of LMAO

Posts: 163

atguns cost munis to fire
1 Jul 2021, 06:47 AM
#24
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17533 | Subs: 8

soviet zis needs to bring the number of crew to 4

Of all the things that won't happen, this is one of them that won't happen the most.
1 Jul 2021, 07:33 AM
#25
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 477

Yeah to me either they need to be more expensive to reinforce so losing models is more costly or I think 9 pop cap would prevent people from having an extra vehicle in the late game. 7 pop cap is really strong considering two of them can shut down most medium tanks.
1 Jul 2021, 07:40 AM
#26
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 940

It's a pretty boring meta, but I really don't see an easy fix that doesn't also seriously impact the game. The price probably can't change, as it will make getting the first ATG harder/slower, which can ruin certain factions (OST), and adding a fuel cost is also a huge problem as it would impact tech timings quite heavily as it's effectively a mandatory unit for most factions.

Mobility is also pretty key, as making them slower makes them even easier to flank than they are now, and is a pretty big nerf to "single ATG builds" and would only encourage getting two. Even changing the reinforce time or cost wouldn't change much, as most of the time you just end up recrewing them with your cheapest infantry since they're behind your infantry line (you do lose vet).

The only change I've seen so far that's viable would be a pop increase to 9 or 10 as that wouldn't change the early or mid-game phase very much, but would impact the later stages. However, by that point arty is pretty common, so double ATGs aren't really a threat.

This is a pretty strange issue; it's a boring meta that isn't really "overpowered" - it's just dull playing against it over and over again. How do you approach "fixing" that, and does it even need to be fixed?
1 Jul 2021, 09:29 AM
#27
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 83

Make getting a 2nd AT gun more expensive maybe? Dont even think its good idea honestly but it could get the desired result
1 Jul 2021, 20:08 PM
#28
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1772 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2021, 21:15 PMEsxile


I had more in mind to increase their popcap by +2 so building 2 atgum become a decision unlike today.


I think this could be reasonable. 2 or even 3 AT guns can have a pretty strong impact on the game - especially on laney maps and the extra pop cap would reflect that. I'm not well versed enough in game mechanics to say how much this would impact MP income but I think it would make some builds that crutch on AT Gun spam a little more honest. Probably a good thing overall.
1 Jul 2021, 21:37 PM
#29
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1988 | Subs: 1

what the actual... fu...c

what the hell is wrong with this forum??
dual at guns.... when i see something like that that, i love it because that's the best arty target i could ask for

what are you all smoking...
1 Jul 2021, 23:00 PM
#30
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 193

what the actual... fu...c

what the hell is wrong with this forum??
dual at guns.... when i see something like that that, i love it because that's the best arty target i could ask for

what are you all smoking...

Not with the timing they are talking about, if you are Ost you have no arty at that timing unless you go T4 which is a gamble. The opponent can make a tank as first vehicle while your hoping your shot lands. For soviets its not to big of a deal because you need it for the other meds anyways so getting Katy first can cause huge bleed.
OKW is the weird one because they can just retreat if shit goes sideways so high reward low risk but shitty unit.
USF is the one with the hardest problem due to their arty kind of sucking for 1v1 in regards to squad wipes.
2 Jul 2021, 07:01 AM
#31
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17533 | Subs: 8


Not with the timing they are talking about, if you are Ost you have no arty at that timing unless you go T4 which is a gamble. The opponent can make a tank as first vehicle while your hoping your shot lands. For soviets its not to big of a deal because you need it for the other meds anyways so getting Katy first can cause huge bleed.
OKW is the weird one because they can just retreat if shit goes sideways so high reward low risk but shitty unit.
USF is the one with the hardest problem due to their arty kind of sucking for 1v1 in regards to squad wipes.

Did they removed mortar from T1?
2 Jul 2021, 11:43 AM
#32
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 193


Did they removed mortar from T1?


I wonder what the TTK is for 1 mortar to kill 1 at gun, then TTK in fog of war, the TTK using the army composition discussed which was 2 at and 2mg.

Pretty much you will have to make 2 with varying levels of success. If it is USF vs OKW that is a massive advantage in MP which will lead to steam rolling since USF mortar has most scatter.
2 Jul 2021, 13:51 PM
#33
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12156 | Subs: 1



I wonder what the TTK is for 1 mortar to kill 1 at gun, then TTK in fog of war, the TTK using the army composition discussed which was 2 at and 2mg.

Pretty much you will have to make 2 with varying levels of success. If it is USF vs OKW that is a massive advantage in MP which will lead to steam rolling since USF mortar has most scatter.

And OKW have no mortar...

USF mortar is one of the most cost efficient mortar out there with not tech cost and lower price so pls avoid claim for "massive advantage in MP"...
2 Jul 2021, 14:30 PM
#34
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 193

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 13:51 PMVipper

And OKW have no mortar...

USF mortar is one of the most cost efficient mortar out there with not tech cost and lower price so pls avoid claim for "massive advantage in MP"...


The advantage would not come from unit cost, once more the OP is talking about specific army composition. We know it is coming so we are attempting to counter it. So when do you build the mortar, it can't be one of your first 2 units because the OKW player will notice the infantry advantage and push hard with opening units which will lead to the massive advantage in MP I was talking about. At no point was I describing the unit itself which is cheap and available.

Is it after the normal build of 3 infantry into LT/CPT, which is about the time the 1st mg comes out?
It is the natural counter, so at this point it comes down to if you get lucky with hits or not, unless the mg is in a building which helps. Any later than this and the pak howi is available if you went CPT which has WP shells which is probably the best way to actually break a turtle due to damage and smoke in one.
2 Jul 2021, 15:21 PM
#35
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12156 | Subs: 1



The advantage would not come from unit cost, once more the OP is talking about specific army composition. We know it is coming so we are attempting to counter it. So when do you build the mortar, it can't be one of your first 2 units because the OKW player will notice the infantry advantage and push hard with opening units which will lead to the massive advantage in MP I was talking about. At no point was I describing the unit itself which is cheap and available.

Is it after the normal build of 3 infantry into LT/CPT, which is about the time the 1st mg comes out?
It is the natural counter, so at this point it comes down to if you get lucky with hits or not, unless the mg is in a building which helps. Any later than this and the pak howi is available if you went CPT which has WP shells which is probably the best way to actually break a turtle due to damage and smoke in one.

I am not sure I follow.

Why would one build a mortar to counter and ATG that has not been build yet? Unless OKW has also build an ATG as one his first 2 units which probably means he does not how to play...

If we are talking about 2 ATG on the field we are talking way past the early game.
2 Jul 2021, 16:19 PM
#36
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 193

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 15:21 PMVipper

I am not sure I follow.

Why would one build a mortar to counter and ATG that has not been build yet? Unless OKW has also build an ATG as one his first 2 units which probably means he does not how to play...

If we are talking about 2 ATG on the field we are talking way past the early game.


Sorry, I wasn't clear. The army OP was talking about was 2 mg 2 at, and Katitof brought up mortars, you are right building a mortar that early for the first OKW mg would be to early since it will not come out until after 1st truck but what about against OST? You will not get reliable wipes to prevent the build which is understandable.

He is saying to build mortar to counter the build which is pretty unreliable for all factions.
2 Jul 2021, 16:38 PM
#37
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12156 | Subs: 1



Sorry, I wasn't clear. The army OP was talking about was 2 mg 2 at, and Katitof brought up mortars, you are right building a mortar that early for the first OKW mg would be to early since it will not come out until after 1st truck but what about against OST? You will not get reliable wipes to prevent the build which is understandable.

He is saying to build mortar to counter the build which is pretty unreliable for all factions.

Thanks for clarifying.
2 Jul 2021, 19:03 PM
#38
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17533 | Subs: 8



I wonder what the TTK is for 1 mortar to kill 1 at gun, then TTK in fog of war, the TTK using the army composition discussed which was 2 at and 2mg.

Pretty much you will have to make 2 with varying levels of success. If it is USF vs OKW that is a massive advantage in MP which will lead to steam rolling since USF mortar has most scatter.

You think that ATG will just sit there while shells land around?
I don't know if you are fully aware of it, but moving ATGs can't shoot.
Make it move, then move in with what you've got.

But yeah, I do agree, mortars are pretty lolzworthy in coh2, given how they were responsible for most killed and wounded in ww2, even outshining the ever present artillery.
2 Jul 2021, 19:41 PM
#39
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3196 | Subs: 1


But yeah, I do agree, mortars are pretty lolzworthy in coh2, given how they were responsible for most killed and wounded in ww2, even outshining the ever present artillery.

Probably wouldn't be fun to play against if they were portrayed accurately lol

Look how much frustration late game arty spam causes, imagine if it was that but the entire game
2 Jul 2021, 20:16 PM
#40
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17533 | Subs: 8


Probably wouldn't be fun to play against if they were portrayed accurately lol

Look how much frustration late game arty spam causes, imagine if it was that but the entire game

Why do you think ost mortar was so badly nerfed over the years?
Also, soviet precision strike?
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