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Pershing vs Tiger. Shouldn't Pershing be buffed?

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16 May 2021, 11:34 AM
#21
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3122 | Subs: 7

Frankly. 800HP pershing was better. At least it gets 50% reload bonus at V3 so It had some advantage about DPS parts.

I would much rather have the extra raw hitpoints over having to hope for miracle bounces (because 300 armor was not that special). The -50% reload was just ridiculous, especially when it could also get another -30% on top from Combined Arms. No other tank in the game had a reload bonus that high. A vet 3 Pershing with CA could reload in like 3 seconds.

As said before the only downside to the bigger HP pool is that it needs more repairs (is it even a downside? Better to spend more time repairing than having a dead tank). And that will be addressed next patch with the damage reduction modifier.


Both IS2 and Tiger 1 have max speed 0ver 6.0 so Pershing's 6.0 max speed wasn't a big benefit at all.

Pershing has better stock speed. It just didn't get any speed bonus with vet, but now it will. It will have 6.6 speed so it will keep the edge over the Tiger and IS-2.


And both tanks gets reload bonus at V2 30%. But after nerf Pershing gets it same 30% at V3.

No they don't. All of them get the reload bonus at vet 3. And the Persing will get an extra 5% to compensate for the wind down because it isn't affected by the reload reduction.
16 May 2021, 11:46 AM
#22
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 364

especially when it could also get another -30% on top from Combined Arms. No other tank in the game had a reload bonus that high. A vet 3 Pershing with CA could reload in like 3 seconds.


I don't think it is fair to bring another commander skill to justify low stat of the tank. It's not like we have to nerf t34-85 because of mark target skill. If you think CA gives too much buff, that's another story from the stat of the Pershing.
16 May 2021, 13:41 PM
#23
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5268



I don't think it is fair to bring another commander skill to justify low stat of the tank. It's not like we have to nerf t34-85 because of mark target skill. If you think CA gives too much buff, that's another story from the stat of the Pershing.

Its impossible to discuss the Pershing without CA in the same way you can't talk about the comet without emergency war speed. They are a package deal and always an option. Any changes to the raw unit have to keep the ability in mind. They are inseparable.
16 May 2021, 13:52 PM
#24
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 364


Its impossible to discuss the Pershing without CA in the same way you can't talk about the comet without emergency war speed. They are a package deal and always an option. Any changes to the raw unit have to keep the ability in mind. They are inseparable.


So 125 munil / 45 sec. / need other inf. nearby another commander skill execuses for being low on stat?

Oh wait I already saw this claim in somewhere... Yeah UKF tanks being lame because they got "potential" with command tank stat boost.
16 May 2021, 14:29 PM
#25
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1117


I would much rather have the extra raw hitpoints over having to hope for miracle bounces (because 300 armor was not that special). The -50% reload was just ridiculous, especially when it could also get another -30% on top from Combined Arms. No other tank in the game had a reload bonus that high. A vet 3 Pershing with CA could reload in like 3 seconds.

As said before the only downside to the bigger HP pool is that it needs more repairs (is it even a downside? Better to spend more time repairing than having a dead tank). And that will be addressed next patch with the damage reduction modifier.



Pershing has better stock speed. It just didn't get any speed bonus with vet, but now it will. It will have 6.6 speed so it will keep the edge over the Tiger and IS-2.



No they don't. All of them get the reload bonus at vet 3. And the Persing will get an extra 5% to compensate for the wind down because it isn't affected by the reload reduction.


You're telling it like CA is super cheap, always available, needs 0 micro or combinations. Perfect "in a vacuum view". Remove CA from the heavy cav and make Pershing worthwhile, or at least justify it with the price.

The current token changes do not bring anything to the table, except for the repair speed bonus. But even that will not really change the fact that you absolutely need 2 REs to repair it in any meaningful time. One RE which gets no repair bonus nor has any repair upgrades (well except for the extra man at vet 3 but REs being squishy as they are, wouldn't hope for much) will repair the Pershing a tad faster. Well, 15% faster. So if the original repair was, let's say, 60 seconds, now it will be 51 seconds. Shaved off 9 seconds. WoW. Of course, the longer the repair, the "bigger" that 15% is. If the original repair time was 180 seconds then it would shave quite enough of time to be worthwhile (about 30 seconds which is plentiful in real time).

But again. The current Pershing is nothing to write home about.
Yes the skillshot is nice on paper. Has good AOE. Penetrates everything. Does great damage. But it takes a f***ton to aim and vs anyone with half a brain, will miss or be dodges (eg. people that do not back off their tanks directly behind but in a "diagonal"). And wasting munitions just to "Maybe" shave off 2 models off a mortar team behind the building.... yeah. No.
Skillshot is not good against infantry unless it's blobbed up and super static.
Not good against unsnared tanks.
Buggy and is scared of any sort of elevations.
On paper it looks good, but in reality, a useless skillshot against anyone decent enough to know that Pershing has a long wind up nuke ability.

Survivability. 270 armour not gonna bounce. Agility not really that high. Higher than the Tiger and KT but again, not so much to actually matter (I'd say acceleration and turn rate are the most important agility aspects of tanks, ones that help the most in a pinch).

Cannon. It's good. A tad better AI than the rest of the heavies. Long reload.
Veterancy. Mediocre at best. The granade at vet 2 is laughable. Like anyone will ever bring the Pershing to the frontlines to face raketen and paks and whatnot which will not bounce reliably to actually toss the nade on the nearby infantry.

Abilities. Like I've said. The skillshot looks good on paper but is highly dependent on the enemy and surroundings/scenario.

Price. The same as better firing, better abilitized, higher armoured counterparts.

Show me a 3v3 or a 4v4 map where moving accuracy matters. Where you won't be blocked by something and does not have obvious lanes with obvious mine placements.
Everyone talking about moving accuracy and accuracy in particular, without any context whatsoever.
16 May 2021, 15:27 PM
#26
avatar of minhuh064

Posts: 37


I would much rather have the extra raw hitpoints over having to hope for miracle bounces (because 300 armor was not that special). The -50% reload was just ridiculous, especially when it could also get another -30% on top from Combined Arms. No other tank in the game had a reload bonus that high. A vet 3 Pershing with CA could reload in like 3 seconds.

As said before the only downside to the bigger HP pool is that it needs more repairs (is it even a downside? Better to spend more time repairing than having a dead tank). And that will be addressed next patch with the damage reduction modifier.



Pershing has better stock speed. It just didn't get any speed bonus with vet, but now it will. It will have 6.6 speed so it will keep the edge over the Tiger and IS-2.



No they don't. All of them get the reload bonus at vet 3. And the Persing will get an extra 5% to compensate for the wind down because it isn't affected by the reload reduction.


Pls, pls, pls, can u just remove CA, vet 2 grenade, HVAP skill shot and buff Pershing to become a real heavy? U can just make Pershing with self repair and that is it. At least it armor should be equal to Tiger.
16 May 2021, 15:46 PM
#27
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 1073


I would much rather have the extra raw hitpoints over having to hope for miracle bounces (because 300 armor was not that special). The -50% reload was just ridiculous, especially when it could also get another -30% on top from Combined Arms. No other tank in the game had a reload bonus that high. A vet 3 Pershing with CA could reload in like 3 seconds.



yeah, 3s of reload in a certain amount of time that require 125 muni ability and keeping infantry nearby on top of 1s wind down is so scary but vet3 tiger with potential 3.29 reload without any extra requirement and wind up/down is ok i guess.

16 May 2021, 16:04 PM
#28
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3122 | Subs: 7

No, that's ~3 second reload with the wind down included. And it had/has significantly better AI and AT (better AOE, better pen, better accuracy, better moving accuracy) than the Tiger per shot. The Tiger's gun is good mostly because of its ROF, that's why its stats are worse.
16 May 2021, 16:22 PM
#29
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 1073

No, that's ~3 second reload with the wind down included. And it had/has significantly better AI and AT (better AOE, better pen, better accuracy, better moving accuracy) than the Tiger per shot. The Tiger's gun is good mostly because of its ROF, that's why its stats are worse.


5.5 stock reload -30% vet 3 - 30% combine arms = 2.685s + 1s wind down = 3.695s that is event more than 3.5s and still longer than tiger's max potential of 3.29s per shot, do you evnt blink what saying something misleading like that ?

event if the tiger having its reaod at max, at vet5 it is still 3.71, "roughly" equal with 3.695s of the pershing with a ton of extra requirement on top.
16 May 2021, 16:33 PM
#30
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3122 | Subs: 7

5.5 stock reload -30% vet 3 - 30% combine arms = 2.685s + 1s wind down = 3.695s that is event more than 3.5s and still longer than tiger's max potential of 3.29s per shot, do you evnt blink what saying something misleading like that?


Read again please. I was explaining why the -50% reload bonus at vet 3 got changed to the standard -30%. Because with -50%, it ended up with a potential 3 second reload.
16 May 2021, 16:37 PM
#31
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 1073

pershing's AT is also nowhere near special, it have 20 more pen than the tiger but since sander mention "ecosystem", pershing have to face target with higher armor so the pen dont make it's that better.

For instance, both pershing and tiger have roughly the same chance to pen each other front armor at max range of 73/74%, while the tiger have more HP and shot faster at both vet 0 and 3, taking into account that pershing have to rely on ability and extra micro to event being on par in term of rof.
16 May 2021, 16:42 PM
#32
avatar of minhuh064

Posts: 37



Read again please. I was explaining why the -50% reload bonus at vet 3 got changed to the standard -30%. Because with -50%, it ended up with a potential 3 second reload.


So 1 side with more HP, more Armor just need to A move versus 1 with less HP, less Armor + CA + need more micro to keep troops around and still win???
16 May 2021, 16:43 PM
#33
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3122 | Subs: 7

pershing have to face target with higher armor so the pen dont make it's that better


Axis
Panzer IV 180-234
Panther 270-286
Tiger 300
Brummbar 260-300
Sturmtiger 220
Tiger II 375

Elefant 400
Jagdtiger 450


Allies
Sherman variants up to 215
Comet 290
Churchill Croc/AVRE 290
Churchill Mk.VII 240
Pershing 270
IS-2 340
KV-1 270
KV-2 300
KV-8 260

ISU 340


Except for the superheavy TDs, Axis hardly have more or better armored tanks.

16 May 2021, 16:47 PM
#34
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 1073



Read again please. I was explaining why the -50% reload bonus at vet 3 got changed to the standard -30%. Because with -50%, it ended up with a potential 3 second reload.


I may misreading some part but it doent change my maint point, that curent pershing(30% vet reload vet) still require alot of additional res and micro just to be on par with tiger in term of rof. I dont come up with the proposal of 50% reload vet nor support it, but the pershing clearly need help and point out CA as a reason not to do so is not reasonable at best, it can and should get REAL buff in other stat other than rof.
16 May 2021, 16:49 PM
#35
avatar of minhuh064

Posts: 37



Axis
Panzer IV 170-234
Panther 270
Tiger 300
Brummbar 260-300
Sturmtiger 220
Tiger II 375

Elefant 400
Jagdtiger 450


Allies
Sherman variants up to 215
Comet 290
Churchill Croc/AVRE 290
Churchill Mk.VII 240
Pershing 270
IS-2 340
KV-1 270
KV-2 300
KV-8 260

ISU 340


Except for the superheavy TDs, Axis hardly have more or better armored tanks.



Do you also count that US only has 1 Pershing doc, has to give up Calliope and offmap skills to versus tons of Tiger doc? Do u nerf OKW armor because of HEAT round and Panther Command doc?
16 May 2021, 16:59 PM
#36
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 364


Allies
Sherman variants up to 215
Comet 290
Churchill Croc/AVRE 290
Churchill Mk.VII 240
Pershing 270
IS-2 340
KV-1 270
KV-2 300
KV-8 260

ISU 340


Only comet & Churchill(240) is stock in here. Any other requires commander, Normal sherman has 160. How fun of you making it look like big by saying "variants" upto 215.

So yes axis indeed have higher armor since even it's medium gets 234 armor.
16 May 2021, 17:06 PM
#37
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 1073



Axis
Panzer IV 170-234
Panther 270
Tiger 300
Brummbar 260-300
Sturmtiger 220
Tiger II 375

Elefant 400
Jagdtiger 450


Allies
Sherman variants up to 215
Comet 290
Churchill Croc/AVRE 290
Churchill Mk.VII 240
Pershing 270
IS-2 340
KV-1 270
KV-2 300
KV-8 260

ISU 340


Except for the superheavy TDs, Axis hardly have more or better armored tanks.


that show in each class of target, i.e medidum to medium tank; heavy to heavy tank; heavytd to heavy td, axis more often have more armor. Like p4 have more armor than all sherman variant, bumbar(vet) have more armor than all churchill variant, etc.

in total, axis have 5 vehicle with 300+ armor, alies have 3, axis have 3 vehicle with 350+ armor, alies have none, what about that ?

And the point is that axis have more armor in general that 20 more pen that the pershing have over the tiger is not an advantage.
16 May 2021, 17:10 PM
#38
16 May 2021, 17:29 PM
#39
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3122 | Subs: 7

in total, axis have 5 vehicle with 300+ armor, alies have 3, axis have 3 vehicle with 350+ armor, alies have none, what about that?


What about what? Allies get high pen TDs, Axis do not.
The big armor advantage is a myth, both sides are roughly on par with all vehicles considered.
Axis get a few outliners, and Allies get stock TDs with high pen to deal with them.
16 May 2021, 17:34 PM
#40
avatar of MarkedRaptor

Posts: 320

Why are people bringing up combined arms like Stuka close air support doesn't exist along a popular tiger commander? Don't somehow make a tank only usable because of a commander skill, because that means the skill is the problem.

I remember briefly talking about the Pershing in another thread, and that it's biggest Achilles heel is its veterancy. It's rangers levels of tacked on without any thought put into it. I was a fan of the 50% attack speed at vet 3 because it means if a USF player kept a panther alive vs the best AT in the game he was rewarded with high dps. Now? Not sure the tank isn't bad it just has to go up against the Pak 40, Panther, and others.

Fix it's veterancy or give it a specialty purpose. I wouldn't care if it had 800 hp or 720 so long as it had stupid rate of fire. Then at least it fits with USFs offensive theme. It's not particularly fast either if I recall, I wouldn't mind that either.
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