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Firefly is too weak

16 May 2021, 06:27 AM
#21
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

That something is bad mobility and insane munitions requirements and slow reload. There is no reason why a slow ass TD with 8 seconds reload should bounce on a P4.


The slow reload only matters in a handful of cases. Due to the higher alpha damage, especially at vet 3, its DPM/TTK against most targets is or becomes higher than any other TD. And that's not even counting the extra damage it can get from the Tulips.
16 May 2021, 07:39 AM
#22
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1



The slow reload only matters in a handful of cases. Due to the higher alpha damage, especially at vet 3, its DPM/TTK against most targets is or becomes higher than any other TD. And that's not even counting the extra damage it can get from the Tulips.


Why does slow reload only matter in a handful of cases? The FF does 200 damage so it still needs 4 shots to kill a P4 if it doesn't miss/bounce. Same as SU85 and Jackson. It's only at vet 3 that it can 3 shot a medium tank and then you still have the problem of penetration as it never gets any penetration bonus with vet. In my opinion, both the SU85 as well as the Jackson are WAY better than the Firefly.
16 May 2021, 07:47 AM
#23
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 782



Why does slow reload only matter in a handful of cases? The FF does 200 damage so it still needs 4 shots to kill a P4 if it doesn't miss/bounce. Same as SU85 and Jackson. It's only at vet 3 that it can 3 shot a medium tank and then you still have the problem of penetration as it never gets any penetration bonus with vet. In my opinion, both the SU85 as well as the Jackson are WAY better than the Firefly.


That is specific only to the 640 hp vehicles-which can be cut down to a 2 shot anyway if combined with tulips. Against the stug (560) its a 3 shot while others need 4, against a vet 2 JP4 its 4 shot while others need 5, against panther its a 5 shot while others need 6.
Vet 3 further skews this as panthers will be 4 shot and 640 hp vehicles will now be 3 shot.


To look at it another way, assuming all shots penetrate a Jackson will take an average of 18.275 seconds to kill a stug, 24.575 seconds to kill a vet JP4 and 30.875 seconds to kill a panther. A firefly will take 16 seconds to kill a stug, 24 seconds to kill a JP4 and 32 seconds to kill a panther and this is assuming no tulips.
16 May 2021, 08:42 AM
#24
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 07:47 AMSerrith

To look at it another way, assuming all shots penetrate a Jackson will take an average of 18.275 seconds to kill a stug, 24.575 seconds to kill a vet JP4 and 30.875 seconds to kill a panther. A firefly will take 16 seconds to kill a stug, 24 seconds to kill a JP4 and 32 seconds to kill a panther and this is assuming no tulips.


So the number adds up to almost identical because of FF's ROF. Thx god they have buffed it to 8 from 10 sec. Plz just make turret rotation & mobility faster.
16 May 2021, 10:07 AM
#25
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



That something is bad mobility and insane munitions requirements and slow reload. There is no reason why a slow ass TD with 8 seconds reload should bounce on a P4.

The idea that TD should have 100% to hit and penetrate a medium tank at range 60 is flawed.
16 May 2021, 10:17 AM
#26
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 10:07 AMVipper

The idea that TD should have 100% to hit and penetrate a medium tank at range 60 is flawed.


Well at least I don't see a reason to give +10 pen. so it can even with jackson or su-85. It has slowest reload time among TDs, yet has lowest pen. among TDs.

And when I said TDs, I meant su-85 / jackson / firefly.
16 May 2021, 10:38 AM
#27
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 549

I do agree Firefly is a little weak but in contrast to other allied TDs. Currently though, the unit is better against the mediums than the heavies due to its lower penetration.

In my opinion, all TDs should have 200 damage but slower reload times and less accuracy with more penetration. So that they still use the same shots to kill mediums while less accuracy causes them to miss more on agile and low target size mediums but longer time to kill them while being better against heavies due to less shots needed to kill while reliably penetrating them.
16 May 2021, 10:39 AM
#28
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



Well at least I don't see a reason to give +10 pen. so it can even with jackson or su-85. It has slowest reload time among TDs, yet has lowest pen. among TDs.

And when I said TDs, I meant su-85 / jackson / firefly.

And that is simply a power creep argument.

M36 is op and should in no way be used as benchmark while SU-85 has one of the best gun in game but has a the drawback of being case mate.

FF performance is fine.
16 May 2021, 10:46 AM
#29
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 10:39 AMVipper

And that is simply a power creep argument.

M36 is op and should in no way be used as benchmark while SU-85 has one of the best gun in game but has a the drawback of being case mate.

FF performance is fine.


So out of 3 allies TD, one is OP, one is the best gun with case mate, and one is FF. K...
16 May 2021, 11:13 AM
#30
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



So out of 3 allies TD, one is OP, one is the best gun with case mate, and one is FF. K...

And all of them can fight axis Tanks just fine.
16 May 2021, 17:57 PM
#31
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2743 | Subs: 2



So out of 3 allies TD, one is OP, one is the best gun with case mate, and one is FF. K...

You shouldn't forget that the Firefly is backed up by a carbon copy of the Pak40 which outclasses the 57mm and the ZiS. The Firefly focuses on heavier units against which it performs only slightly worse offensively. The Tulips are mighty strong though.
16 May 2021, 18:04 PM
#32
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 449


You shouldn't forget that the Firefly is backed up by a carbon copy of the Pak40 which outclasses the 57mm and the ZiS. The Firefly focuses on heavier units against which it performs only slightly worse offensively. The Tulips are mighty strong though.


Sorry I don't get the point. Why it has less pen if it focuses on heavier units?

I'm pretty sure spike dps rise due to tullps are evened by slowest ROF(I'm talking about 8+ sec. here. About 1.5 times slower than usual tanks)

BTW, good to see you saying pak40 outclasses 57/zis. I'm pretty sure I had some arguments over this in another thread. However I think pak40 has better skill than a 6 pounder, but nothing important here.
16 May 2021, 19:04 PM
#33
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2743 | Subs: 2



Sorry I don't get the point. Why it has less pen if it focuses on heavier units?

I'm pretty sure spike dps rise due to tullps are evened by slowest ROF(I'm talking about 8+ sec. here. About 1.5 times slower than usual tanks)

BTW, good to see you saying pak40 outclasses 57/zis. I'm pretty sure I had some arguments over this in another thread. However I think pak40 has better skill than a 6 pounder, but nothing important here.

The Firefly has increased base damage that does not really help much vs mediums (unless you can snare), but reduces the shots needed against heavies. The damage bonus with vet improves again vs both targets. Another notable thing is that the mid distance is 45 meters instead of the expected 30. Combined with high mid penetration the Firefly has better penetration at most ranges than the Jackson for example. AT least until the Jackson vets up.

The tulips again feed into the anti heavy role, since those are easier to hit and do not run away that quickly. The ROF is one of the slowest in the game, which is compensated by higher damage. (Jackson needs almost 7 seconds to reload too, Firefly 8,375).

The only difference between the PaK40 and the 6 pounder is the vet1 ability (apart from maybe some vet, not 100% sure). I personally think these are the best ATGs since I do not like the muni sink of the 57mm. But other player's have other opinions and that's fine, I am not the be all end all reference for CoH2.
16 May 2021, 19:13 PM
#34
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 449


The Firefly has increased base damage that does not really help much vs mediums (unless you can snare), but reduces the shots needed against heavies. The damage bonus with vet improves again vs both targets. Another notable thing is that the mid distance is 45 meters instead of the expected 30. Combined with high mid penetration the Firefly has better penetration at most ranges than the Jackson for example. AT least until the Jackson vets up.


Oh you were talking about the 200/240 dmg of FF. Okay I see that. We still need to see how FF works after commander patch (since some buff on turret rotation/mobility will be there AFAIK), because the most problematic part of FF I believe is it's low mobility & turret rotation speed. but I would pick Jackson over FF in most situations with current(pre-commander patch) stat. However, I have not know that it gets better mid distance(45). That a bit explains why it has less pen. Still means doing low pen on 45~60, but anyway... As I've mentioned earlier. FF isn't the basic problem UKF is having right now...

Thanks for the info.
16 May 2021, 19:27 PM
#35
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 549



Oh you were talking about the 200/240 dmg of FF. Okay I see that. We still need to see how FF works after commander patch (since some buff on turret rotation/mobility will be there AFAIK), because the most problematic part of FF I believe is it's low mobility & turret rotation speed. but I would pick Jackson over FF in most situations with current(pre-commander patch) stat. However, I have not know that it gets better mid distance(45). That a bit explains why it has less pen. Still means doing low pen on 45~60, but anyway... As I've mentioned earlier. FF isn't the basic problem UKF is having right now...

Thanks for the info.


Wouldn't anyone just rather the Jackson than anything else :D
17 May 2021, 01:19 AM
#36
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1731


The Firefly has increased base damage that does not really help much vs mediums (unless you can snare), but reduces the shots needed against heavies. The damage bonus with vet improves again vs both targets. Another notable thing is that the mid distance is 45 meters instead of the expected 30. Combined with high mid penetration the Firefly has better penetration at most ranges than the Jackson for example. AT least until the Jackson vets up.

The tulips again feed into the anti heavy role, since those are easier to hit and do not run away that quickly. The ROF is one of the slowest in the game, which is compensated by higher damage. (Jackson needs almost 7 seconds to reload too, Firefly 8,375).

The only difference between the PaK40 and the 6 pounder is the vet1 ability (apart from maybe some vet, not 100% sure). I personally think these are the best ATGs since I do not like the muni sink of the 57mm. But other player's have other opinions and that's fine, I am not the be all end all reference for CoH2.


FF also have tank commander to make its sight 45, combines perfect with its 45 mid range attacks.
17 May 2021, 03:01 AM
#37
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 782

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 19:27 PMJilet


Wouldn't anyone just rather the Jackson than anything else :D


I think the Jackson is generally going to be SAFER than the other TDs for most situations as while it doesnt have some of the strengths of the others (durability/cammo like jp4, self spotting and excellent rate of fire like su85, tulips and 200 alpha shots like firefly) it has very good mobility, reasonable accuracy on the move, good penetration, self repair and a turret. It just lacks real exploitable weaknesses unlike the other TDs.
17 May 2021, 08:36 AM
#38
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 351



Oh you were talking about the 200/240 dmg of FF. Okay I see that. We still need to see how FF works after commander patch (since some buff on turret rotation/mobility will be there AFAIK), because the most problematic part of FF I believe is it's low mobility & turret rotation speed. but I would pick Jackson over FF in most situations with current(pre-commander patch) stat. However, I have not know that it gets better mid distance(45). That a bit explains why it has less pen. Still means doing low pen on 45~60, but anyway... As I've mentioned earlier. FF isn't the basic problem UKF is having right now...

Thanks for the info.


What would you say is the problem for Brits?

I'm speaking strictly from a team games perspective. The firefly is really lacking compared to other TD options and doesn't perform well for its cost. As you've mentioned, its not mobile enough to respond to threats especially massed Panther pushes on a single lane. The slow turret rotation doesn't help its case either. I hate the tulip rocket gimmick and wish it could be balanced and replaced with a flat stat buff to make it more reliable vs gimmicky.

As I've mentioned in other threads. I really want to 'fix' how easy it is to get value with Panthers without actually nerfing them. There needs to be stronger counters to the Panther while the Panther retains its great AI and AT potential for its cost. A more mobile Firefly, I believe would be a great start.
17 May 2021, 08:43 AM
#39
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 449



What would you say is the problem for Brits?

I'm speaking strictly from a team games perspective. The firefly is really lacking compared to other TD options and doesn't perform well for its cost. As you've mentioned, its not mobile enough to respond to threats especially massed Panther pushes on a single lane. The slow turret rotation doesn't help its case either. I hate the tulip rocket gimmick and wish it could be balanced and replaced with a flat stat buff to make it more reliable vs gimmicky.

As I've mentioned in other threads. I really want to 'fix' how easy it is to get value with Panthers without actually nerfing them. There needs to be stronger counters to the Panther while the Panther retains its great AI and AT potential for its cost. A more mobile Firefly, I believe would be a great start.


First thing is first, IS needs to have snare. It was justified since they had way better AI than any other mainline infantry back then. But it's not anymore. It NEEDS TO HAVE snare.
Give stock average mortar. Delete emplacement in return. I don't care.

IF IS can't get snare for some reason, buff on AEC is needed.

Rollback repair speed of heavy sapper. Churchill is not an option after it's pop can nerf & sapper's repair speed nerf.
Buff Churchill's pop cap. Buff on Comet in terms of AI would be nice(but not likely to happen)

I'd say FF is good enough if it gets it's turret rotation & mobility buff. And AFAIK, it is on the patch log of upcoming commander patch.


Don't get me wrong here. I used to play UKF since CoH1, and it was my main faction. I just don't play it anymore because it's not playable faction at current balance. Just look at the stat from coh2stat.com or ML5.
17 May 2021, 08:54 AM
#40
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 351



First thing is first, IS needs to have snare. It was justified since they had way better AI than any other mainline infantry back then. But it's not anymore. It NEEDS TO HAVE snare.
Give stock average mortar. Delete emplacement in return. I don't care.

IF IS can't get snare for some reason, buff on AEC is needed.

Rollback repair speed of heavy sapper. Churchill is not an option after it's pop can nerf & sapper's repair speed nerf.
Buff Churchill's pop cap. Buff on Comet in terms of AI would be nice(but not likely to happen)

I'd say FF is good enough if it gets it's turret rotation & mobility buff. And AFAIK, it is on the patch log of upcoming commander patch.


Don't get me wrong here. I used to play UKF since CoH1, and it was my main faction. I just don't play it anymore because it's not playable faction at current balance. Just look at the stat from coh2stat.com or ML5.


I definitely agree that Infantry Section need snares since its been hit with consecutive nerfs with the recent patches but something must be done about double bren IS in return. I'm not quite sure regarding the other changes since I rarely see Churchill and Anvil tactics used in team games. The Comet felt better when it didn't have a projectile.

The mobility buff on Firefly is a great start but I don't think its enough. The Firefly as a tank itself doesn't feel great to use. When you spend 145F on a tank, it should feel powerful and it should do the job that its assigned to. Like the E8, the Firefly isn't that great in both regards. Its slow and clunky with an annoying gimmick. IMO it would be far better to use if it was more reliable (slight main gun buff) in addition to the slight mobility buff.

I doubt any changes would affect its match ups either since Brits are sitting at a fairly low win-rate across all game modes. Anyone can attest that it has trouble in large game modes because of their inability to counter Panther spam and heavy tanks. Sure anti-tank guns are great but ATGs and Fireflies are simply awful at countering Panther spam due to its low mobility and slow fire rate. A Panther can simply reverse out of a Fireflys range and be completely safe.

Simply surviving with a Panther is getting value while surviving with a Firefly is not getting value. You're getting value by neutralizing a threat but you're still taking damage and losing units in return. Its very hard to get value with the Firefly.
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