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Hull Down Panther new best TD?

14 Apr 2021, 05:57 AM
#21
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1432

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Apr 2021, 15:05 PMSumi
I think this deserves a nerf now, 62.5 range panther with 960 HP and 260 frontal armor is way too OP for something coming in at 175 fuel. The TDs not cant even trade with panther in this situation and Allies have to risk bleeding as they dont have a choice.

Remember when ISU was nerfed because 70 range AI was way too OP with a tank that could be made only once contrary to panther.

Unlike the ISU panther can't fight ATG's.
14 Apr 2021, 06:02 AM
#22
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1432



StuG, yeah mwah. However the Brummbar has -25/25 gun traverse, that's more than enough to cover an entire VP or whatever frontline area. The Elefant gets an astonishing 87,5 range, that alone in itself can be ridiculously good even if it only gets 1 or 2 shots off, and with its decent -15/15 gun traverse, the end of that cone covers quite a massive area. And since the most popular maps are the laney ones, Hull Down is easily good enough for these two.
'm not sure if I like the idea of Ele's being able to out range 17 lbr.
14 Apr 2021, 09:45 AM
#23
avatar of Tetranet

Posts: 164

Anyone else find it weird that people are already wanting to nerf the least used ability in the game before we even see how changes affect things?





:rolleyes:


Of all things I least expected Hull Down to be called OP. Maybe a case could have been made a long time ago when it buffed damage via reload, but now?
14 Apr 2021, 10:03 AM
#24
avatar of Sumi

Posts: 116


I mean you can always use an ATG.
The ISU was nerfed because it does very high alpha damage plus at 70 range there was literally no way to counter it. Especially with 50 range Axis TDs.
A 62,5 range Panther can still be damaged by 60 range ATGs and Allied TDs. If this is good enough we will see.

If some nerf were needed, I'd go for some delay before a hulled down unit can drive again or some other soft parameter, but no combat stats.


M1 and Jackson suck at penetrating panther with or without vet, I have had vet 2 Jackson with AP round bounce on Panther frontally and that was without hull down. So as I said pushing AT guns will cause bleed right whereas Panther can easily trade well with any TDs allies have and also come out on top. I could say it is so OP that it can go against 2 non vet Jackson and kill one and still get away with low health.

You are experienced enough for me to explain to you how OST fares in 4v4 right, the Allies can barely manage to stay afloat because of their TDs which trade well. This hull down in particular devoids this strat of Allies. I dont know why this hull-down deserved this buff which made vehicles independent to use this strat now it can be easily spammed throughout.

There would hardly be any match in formats 2v2+ where ISU would not be up against Elefant but since you claim that there was no way to counter it with Pak43s and Elefant readily available in OST commanders, what way does the Allies have to counter the Elefant now? Keeping in mind that not everyone can make a 17 pounder.
14 Apr 2021, 10:11 AM
#25
avatar of Sumi

Posts: 116


Unlike the ISU panther can't fight ATG's.


Unlike panther ISU can't fight tanks that well - it has a far penetration of 200 as compared to far penetration of 220 on panther. But I get that it outranges panther by 20, but its AT sucks and I once had A shell of ISU bounce frontally on a vet 2 Okw pz4 imagine that, how stalin would have committed suicide on the spot. ISU was heavily used as long range AI, but its not that it was not counterable right, every 3v3 or 4v4 with OST always had an elefant commander which is the best counter to ISU. Coming back to the topic, panther here can now independently hull down and easily trade with Allied TDs and always come out on top so that is where the issue starts. You have to risk bleeding AT guns or take counter damage while sniping a single hull-down panther from long range.
14 Apr 2021, 12:01 PM
#26
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 779

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 10:03 AMSumi


M1 and Jackson suck at penetrating panther with or without vet, I have had vet 2 Jackson with AP round bounce on Panther frontally and that was without hull down.

Jackson doesn't recieve additional penetration until vet 3 not vet 2 thus the vet 2 is irrelevant. Jackson with hvap has 253 long range penetration and thus a
97.3% chance to penetrate a stock panther. You just got really unlucky. With vet 3 Jackson has 100% chance to penetrate panther even if it has sideskirts and even without using HVAP.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 10:11 AMSumi


Unlike panther ISU can't fight tanks that well - it has a far penetration of 200 as compared to far penetration of 220 on panther. But I get that it outranges panther by 20, but its AT sucks and I once had A shell of ISU bounce frontally on a vet 2 Okw pz4 imagine that, how stalin would have committed suicide on the spot.

Just unlucky. 200 far penetration with 70 range isnt actually bad, in fact at 50 range the ISU will have about 220 penetration just like the panther. The real issue the ISU has against tanks is rate of fire, not penetration.
14 Apr 2021, 12:09 PM
#27
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2203 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 10:03 AMSumi


M1 and Jackson suck at penetrating panther with or without vet, I have had vet 2 Jackson with AP round bounce on Panther frontally and that was without hull down. So as I said pushing AT guns will cause bleed right whereas Panther can easily trade well with any TDs allies have and also come out on top. I could say it is so OP that it can go against 2 non vet Jackson and kill one and still get away with low health.

You are experienced enough for me to explain to you how OST fares in 4v4 right, the Allies can barely manage to stay afloat because of their TDs which trade well. This hull down in particular devoids this strat of Allies. I dont know why this hull-down deserved this buff which made vehicles independent to use this strat now it can be easily spammed throughout.

There would hardly be any match in formats 2v2+ where ISU would not be up against Elefant but since you claim that there was no way to counter it with Pak43s and Elefant readily available in OST commanders, what way does the Allies have to counter the Elefant now? Keeping in mind that not everyone can make a 17 pounder.

Jackson has a frontal 85% pen chance at vet0 and 100% at vet3.
The 57mm with sabot rounds still has at least a 81% chance. It's not great, but given the 60 range and good ROF you can force the Panther to move.

I am not sure if the self hull down is necessary, maybe a quicker cast time would be fine too. But compared to other commander abilities at the moment it is a rather weak ability, because it costs a lot of micro and binds infantry, while additionally being quite situational.

A doctrinal unit must be counterable by stock options. If you take doctrinal abilities into the equation you need to discuss offmaps as well. But I think this would lead too far off the actual topic. I think the concern you raise is very valid, but hull down is not uncounterable and it really needs some change to make it more competitive.
14 Apr 2021, 12:18 PM
#28
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1432

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 10:11 AMSumi


Unlike panther ISU can't fight tanks that well - it has a far penetration of 200 as compared to far penetration of 220 on panther. But I get that it outranges panther by 20, but its AT sucks and I once had A shell of ISU bounce frontally on a vet 2 Okw pz4 imagine that, how stalin would have committed suicide on the spot. ISU was heavily used as long range AI, but its not that it was not counterable right, every 3v3 or 4v4 with OST always had an elefant commander which is the best counter to ISU. Coming back to the topic, panther here can now independently hull down and easily trade with Allied TDs and always come out on top so that is where the issue starts. You have to risk bleeding AT guns or take counter damage while sniping a single hull-down panther from long range.
Nope, I was correcting your basis for reducing hull down panthers range. for ISU 70 range HE was an issue as it allowed it to counter ATG's. Panther even in hull down can't counter it's natural counter.
14 Apr 2021, 12:21 PM
#29
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1254

Edit; Wait, there's more than one hull-down commanders? That's more than what I remember. My bad.
Post removed as I was wrong.

14 Apr 2021, 12:31 PM
#31
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2203 | Subs: 2

[outdated post]

By artillery you mean off maps? At least one of them has the railway arty though. But we will see. With a lot of abilities being switched and altered, we don't know yet how exactly the commander will play.
There's also a lot of commanders that have an early give-away for what will happen in the late game, the late game units/abilities are still being played. I think this is more of a concern for the late game unit than for the early one (in our case Elefant/railway arty and hull down, respectively)
14 Apr 2021, 12:34 PM
#32
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1254


By artillery you mean off maps? At least one of them has the railway arty though. But we will see. With a lot of abilities being switched and altered, we don't know yet how exactly the commander will play.
There's also a lot of commanders that have an early give-away for what will happen in the late game, the late game units/abilities are still being played. I think this is more of a concern for the late game unit than for the early one (in our case Elefant/railway arty and hull down, respectively)


I removed my post about a minute after I posted it, I had in mind that there was only one with hull down (Elefant Commander). There are also upcoming commander changes. That shows that it has been a while since I played with the railway artillery commander or Hull Down... Personally, I like HullDown, but the commanders are very limiting compared to other available ones that cover a full range of possible 2on2 plays. Thus, I barely chose it, I think the last time I picked it was for a modded patch 2on2 game. Elefant&Hulldown commander in 2on2 feels VERY limiting and allows the opposition to control the play more effectively.

Yeah, I meant artillery that includes off-maps and long-range units/builds. There aren't many commanders out there that add strong mid and end game concerns to the opposite team. I prefer to load out commanders so that the enemy cannot fully be confident that their FRP is safe, their expensive units are safe, and/or skill plans might land on their beloved toys at any time. Hull Down commanders don't really offer that range of play. If Hull down was added to the (for example top 5) most equipped commanders as per coh2stats, only then perhaps it might be considered as stronger than what it is now. But for now, considering it is only in limiting commanders, there is no need to have it redesigned and modified in any way.
14 Apr 2021, 13:28 PM
#33
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2203 | Subs: 2



I removed my post about a minute after I posted it, I had in mind that there was only one with hull down (Elefant Commander). There are also upcoming commander changes. That shows that it has been a while since I played with the railway artillery commander or Hull Down... Personally, I like HullDown, but the commanders are very limiting compared to other available ones that cover a full range of possible 2on2 plays. Thus, I barely chose it, I think the last time I picked it was for a modded patch 2on2 game.

Yeah, I meant artillery that includes off-maps and long-range units/builds. There aren't many commanders out there that add strong mid and end game concerns to the opposite team. I prefer to load out commanders so that the enemy cannot fully be confident that their FRP is safe, their expensive units are safe, and/or skill plans might land on their beloved toys at any time. Hull Down commanders don't really offer that range of play. If Hull down was added to the (for example top 5) most equipped commanders as per coh2stats, only then perhaps it might be considered as stronger than what it is now. But for now, considering it is only in limiting commanders, there is no need to have it redesigned and modified in any way.

(must have been typing then while you were editing, unfortunate timing)

Yes, I agree. The commanders that promote a very slow and steady approach to fighting, but that is the case with quite some OST commanders. I think with some changes to the Command P4 (the planned switch to P4J and whatever adjustment the unit might get) they might get a bit more flexible.

I personally like hull down, for once because it is unique and second because it has a very nice visual and thematic style. Even before the patch notes went live I tried to use it again, but I always felt I could not really get it to work. It just has so many conditions to be useful: You need to know not only that your opponent will make a big push, but also the exact direction of tank forces. You then need an infantry squad nearby to dig in your tank and send the infantry back to its own position. All while hoping that the enemy does not attack. There must be some tradeoff, but if you misjudge any of these points (even if the enemy attacks later than you think) you are probably better of with not digging in in the first place because you wasted the potential of two squads at once. The self-hull down is a good idea in my opinion, but it might indeed need some other changes/potential nerfs to keep it balanced).
Slightly offtopic: For some units as the P4 it is barely worth it since those will still be outranged by Allied TD while losing their biggest asset: mobility. I can only see proper use for the Panther (+StuG and the Elefant on VERY laney maps).
14 Apr 2021, 14:16 PM
#34
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3096 | Subs: 1

So we heard a lot during years about Brit's simcity and now the same people are promoting Ostheer simcity that outrange most of all of their respective counters.

Bear with me, what's are the most appropriate counters to Brit simcity? Panther? Elefant? Atgun? Or Stuka, mortar, Brumbar, Pwerfer, Lieg. Good luck damaging panther on hulldown with the Scott, 80mm mortar or katyushas.

Someone mentioned Atgun, lol? since the panther will be there already with better armor and range that's mean the only support you can provide to the atgun are infantry units and we all know how infantry without tank in support do well on the late game!

The only thing that make the current hulldown balanced today is that its not used, once people start using it that's just going to ruin the game.
14 Apr 2021, 14:19 PM
#35
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11802 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 14:16 PMEsxile
So we heard a lot during years about Brit's simcity and now the same people are promoting Ostheer simcity that outrange most of all of their respective counters.

Bear with me, what's are the most appropriate counters to Brit simcity? Panther? Elefant? Atgun? Or Stuka, mortar, Brumbar, Pwerfer, Lieg. Good luck damaging panther on hulldown with the Scott, 80mm mortar or katyushas.

Someone mentioned Atgun, lol? since the panther will be there already with better armor and range that's mean the only support you can provide to the atgun are infantry units and we all know how infantry without tank in support do well on the late game!

The only thing that make the current hulldown balanced today is that its not used, once people start using it that's just going to ruin the game.

The best counter of hull done tank is "heat barrage" or timed fused barrage both available to Allies.

You can also use ground attack atgs.
14 Apr 2021, 14:23 PM
#36
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3096 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 14:19 PMVipper

The best counter of hull done tank is "heat barrage" or timed fused barrage both available to Allies.

You can also use ground attack atgs.


Which says a lot of how the ability is only balanced by the fact no one use it.
14 Apr 2021, 14:25 PM
#37
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11802 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 14:23 PMEsxile


Which says a lot of how the ability is only balanced by the fact no one use it.

Since it is available it Elefant it means that is probably not as good as you think and one can counter it.
14 Apr 2021, 15:08 PM
#38
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 984

+25% range and +25% armour, with no drawback, is simply insane and will be meta in team games
14 Apr 2021, 16:12 PM
#39
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3060 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 15:08 PMAradan
+25% range and +25% armour, with no drawback


I'd call not being able to move a pretty large drawback.
14 Apr 2021, 16:20 PM
#40
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 915



I'd call not being able to move a pretty large drawback.


Depends on the time it takes to hull down, de-hull (or w/e the correct English word is).

If it takes a good chunk of time to hull down and can not instantly exit the hull down mode, then it has a drawback. If the de-hull time is instant, then there is no point in flanking as the tank can just exit hull mode, maneuver and go into hull again.

So the overall power of Hull-down depends on setup time.

What is the setup time for it?
How long does it take to exit Hull down?

These two questions should be asked. As you've said, not being able to move is a substantial drawback, but not if it takes a couple of seconds to setup or exit.

The tank bonuses are fine. Elefant is probably the only tank that should not be able to hull down because it's got a wide enough cone, to be able to put far enough to cover a whole lane with it's range. Because you know, the further, the more comes into your field of "view".

Other than that, a Panther is fine with it's bonuses. Tweaking the time needed is enough to balance hull down for team games.
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