Login

russian armor

Late game performances of Volksgrenadiers and veterancy

PAGES (7)down
4 Apr 2021, 04:32 AM
#81
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



Volks are already super cheap. And the test clearly shows Volks beat Cons at close or mid range.

I'm surprised to see Cons beat Volks at long range. Very skeptical about that. Perhaps because of the buff behind green cover. But out of cover Volks definitely win

No it's because Cons 12*7>=80 their models that's why.
4 Apr 2021, 06:20 AM
#82
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



Nades also only affect Rifles or Section so that is moot point.

usf nades also give smoke nades to rear echelons on the brits you do have a point with mills bombs

Your Joking right. AEC and Stuart arrives at the same time as ost LV and are significantly stronger.
Yeah and you get the MG because of the god awefull shit tier infantry you get. You know despite having an MG do you know why Brits don't function like OST because that is a shit design but allies cant have shit design.

ost lv are earlier still and the flametrack wreck infantry harder tgen either of those

Are you high???? If you think that you are much worse then your opponents. F t34's you can get t34-85's/KV-1's by the time OST can hit P4's.
you seem to be the high one, getting t34 85 or kv1 before an ost p4? The ost player must be loosing badly already if that happens, or sov skipped t70

4 Apr 2021, 06:30 AM
#83
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660



Volks are already super cheap.


No, they aren't, conscripts are cheap


I'm surprised to see Cons beat Volks at long range. Very skeptical about that. Perhaps because of the buff behind green cover. But out of cover Volks definitely win


They win out of cover as well, and there's no such thing as late game engagement out of yellow cover
4 Apr 2021, 06:40 AM
#84
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

Kinda love it that tunnel vision fanboys tries to make a plus into a minus. Do you actually want shock nade+smoke and guard nade to be locked behind this upgrade too maybe even penal satchels as well to make this more in line with all other factions???

Sure you can build a flame HT knowing just 10 sec later an AEC/Sturt is gonna kill your ass.

How are failing to get mediums later than the ost player. Tech is cheaper, you have stronger overall infantry(for the sovs you have more overall infantry) so that mean map control should also be slightly better and mediums them selves are also cheaper. Like how can you say allies get medium later than OST. caus they don't. Unless you had a shit early game-mid your medium time is gonna be in line with OST.
4 Apr 2021, 06:45 AM
#85
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



They don't, they have far better RA than Volks


Only at vet 3. But have a far worse flame nade less healing options and no ai upgrade.

Imo volks are not meant to be the same main line as what other factions get. They have much stronger elite obers stock after them. There is where okw should be buffed. Imo @pip made some good or even excelent point on how to this.
4 Apr 2021, 06:48 AM
#86
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660



Only at vet 3. But have a far worse flame nade less healing options and no ai upgrade.

Imo volks are not meant to be the same main line as what other factions get. They have much stronger elite obers stock after them. There is where okw should be buffed. Imo @pip made some good or even excelent point on how to this.

If volksgrenadiers are supposed to be this bad against cons than they are also supposed to become cheaper, they are barely any cheaper than riflemen currently

And no, soviets have far more healing options than okw both doctrinally and non doctrinally, with the ability to tech for it as you please instead of backteching
4 Apr 2021, 06:53 AM
#87
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



Only at vet 3
But Cons have 6 men.
4 Apr 2021, 07:13 AM
#88
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

Kinda love it that tunnel vision fanboys tries to make a plus into a minus. Do you actually want shock nade+smoke and guard nade to be locked behind this upgrade too maybe even penal satchels as well to make this more in line with all other factions???

Sure you can build a flame HT knowing just 10 sec later an AEC/Sturt is gonna kill your ass.

How are failing to get mediums later than the ost player. Tech is cheaper, you have stronger overall infantry(for the sovs you have more overall infantry) so that mean map control should also be slightly better and mediums them selves are also cheaper. Like how can you say allies get medium later than OST. caus they don't. Unless you had a shit early game-mid your medium time is gonna be in line with OST.


Where did i say i want faction to be more alike? I like them to be different, but the nitpicking of pro's and cons in a vacuum needs to stop.

So what that the flametrack can get counterd shortly after. The m5 quad/t70 has the same problem but nobody complains about that.

"Stronger" infantry overall with far less wipe potential but more durability and a mg wich needs muni to be on par with with the ost counter part.
With simaler map control if soviet goes t70 ost are almost certain to get a p4 out earlier then soviet get a t34 and esp a kv1 or t34 85.
The the t34 76 is not a bit cheaper its a lot cheaper because its quite a bit worse then other meds. Because it arrives late for its preformance it has no schock value unlike other mediums.
4 Apr 2021, 08:25 AM
#89
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

But they have 6 men. And they have 0.99 ra at vet1.

So do osttruppen and they still lose to most units.

You do realize that units are balanced as a whole unit and not individual model vs individual model?
And that 6 men is the reason WHY they have high RA and low DPS?
Volks also used to have that design in comparison to grens, but then they were made into better grens.
4 Apr 2021, 15:14 PM
#90
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808

id be very wary of buffing volks combat performance, i think it would just be easier to decrease their cost and make them more cost efficient, im sure by design they are supposed to be like that anyway.
4 Apr 2021, 16:05 PM
#91
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

imo instead of buffing volks, we should nerf 7 men cons vet bonus.

even as ost, fighting late games 2v2 sov is tough. sov are super capable to dig in and hold out the VP.

the new commander patch is going to give cons 4 ppsh!
4 Apr 2021, 16:08 PM
#92
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

imo instead of buffing volks, we should nerf 7 men cons vet bonus.

Like it was nerfed last patch you mean?
Get up to date.

even as ost, fighting late games 2v2 sov is tough. sov are super capable to dig in and hold out the VP.

That's literally the whole purpose of 7th man squad, to be able to outlast infantry and be good in cover.

the new commander patch is going to give cons 4 ppsh!

So?
3 ppsh is clearly lacking, we were suggesting giving them grenade, they got 4th back.
Pip
4 Apr 2021, 17:48 PM
#93
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594


So do osttruppen and they still lose to most units.


Because they have 1.25 RA and abysmal rifles, their RA doesn't change until vet3, incidentally. Paratroopers also have six men, and they beat most units.

His post was pointing out that Conscript's strictly worse RA is counterbalanced by the fact they have six men, not that six men is a magic number of men in a squad that magically confers anything, I'm not sure what you're trying to convey here.


You do realize that units are balanced as a whole unit and not individual model vs individual model?
And that 6 men is the reason WHY they have high RA and low DPS?
Volks also used to have that design in comparison to grens, but then they were made into better grens.


Volks are not better Grens, they're entirely different units.

Though I would agree that Volks /should/ have a similar design to Conscripts, in terms of having high survivability/efficiency counteracted by relatively low damage, this suits Volksgrenadiers' role much better than the current design of the unit.

id be very wary of buffing volks combat performance, i think it would just be easier to decrease their cost and make them more cost efficient, im sure by design they are supposed to be like that anyway.


If you decreased Volks' cost you'd need to make their early game performance worse. They /already/ get by due to being fairly cost-efficient in the early game, if they were made cheaper with no further changes I think some factions (Soviets in particular) would have an absolute hell of a time in the early game against them.

(It also kind of doesn't fix the core problem; That you "need" to build four Volks, and so have difficulty fitting Obers in without squad losses)
4 Apr 2021, 18:23 PM
#95
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563


So do osttruppen and they still lose to most units.

You do realize that units are balanced as a whole unit and not individual model vs individual model?
And that 6 men is the reason WHY they have high RA and low DPS?
Volks also used to have that design in comparison to grens, but then they were made into better grens.

Mate, why do you reply when you are so uneducated about facts????? Can't you even go to coh2 vet guide v2 even once. Next time you respond with something that blatantly uneducated don't expect me to acknowledge your thoughts.
4 Apr 2021, 20:26 PM
#96
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 959

imo instead of buffing volks, we should nerf 7 men cons vet bonus.


This.

The issue isn't volks; they're actually decent (although not amazing) when facing USF and UKF (to a lesser extent). The issue is that 7 man cons are incredibly powerful - and more importantly, cost effective.

I'd almost argue that the "7 man" upgrade was a mistake, but I think it can still be made to work with some changes.

A quick test to show what I mean:

If you put 2x Vet 5 Obers w/ LMGs in green cover, 3x Vet 3 7 man cons (no upgrades) will win when closing from max range, across neutral cover. And it's not close; each squad had 2-3 models left.

640mp + 160muni locked behind T4, in cover vs 720mp + 150muni available at T0, in the worst possible attack.

If we flip it, and put 3x Vet 3 7 man cons in green cover, 3x Vet 3 Pgrens lose when attacking in the same situation. And again, it's not close - the cons had between 2 and 6 models left. So That's 1,020mp losing badly to 720mp, and they have close-range weapons for when they get to the sandbags.

For Cons to be balanced, both of these situations can't happen. Either the 'defending' squads need to win, since they have the cover bonus and no moving penalty, despite being less expensive (sort of?), OR the attacking squads need to win, since they're more expensive.

Cons can't win in both situations; it doesn't make sense.

5 Apr 2021, 06:26 AM
#97
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 369


7 man cons (no upgrades) will win


7 man, Is an upgrade that locks out all other weapon slots. So...
5 Apr 2021, 07:04 AM
#98
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 1003

Side with weakest tank (T34/76) have solid infantry. And this is wrong? Make them 260mp also and keep one slot for weapon open.
And make T34/85 or IS2 non doc?
5 Apr 2021, 11:12 AM
#99
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 770



Only at vet 3. But have a far worse flame nade less healing options and no ai upgrade.

Imo volks are not meant to be the same main line as what other factions get. They have much stronger elite obers stock after them. There is where okw should be buffed. Imo @pip made some good or even excelent point on how to this.


You know this is the same argument that people used in CoH 1 when talking about volks to grens. It didnt work back then. By the time you get obers you liklely invested minutes worth in mp xp and ammo in them.

At the moment the ostheer grens will do a better job
5 Apr 2021, 12:30 PM
#100
avatar of blancat

Posts: 810

If you agree to delete the Obersoldaten, you can buff the volk
PAGES (7)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Livestreams

unknown 2
Korea, Republic Of 0

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

456 users are online: 1 member and 455 guests
Basilone
6 posts in the last 24h
32 posts in the last week
86 posts in the last month
Registered members: 44637
Welcome our newest member, tridevambulance
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM