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Commander Update Beta 2021 - Soviet Feedback

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31 May 2021, 00:10 AM
#741
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

I am not sure if I am missing something here, but unless you have been pushed back heavily or pushed the enemy, units generally stand in the middle of the map. So it should not matter that much if you attack from the front or the back, or what am I not getting here? Why is this more special for 3v3/4v4 than for small modes? Large modes generally have more delay on plane based attacks, I just don't get why the direction is that important if units are fighting in the middle of the map anyway. If you could elaborate on that, that would be good.


No problem, I will explain with the aid of a real game situation. As I played on steppes there was a fight about the island at the bottom with fuel and VP. Germans were playing on left side. A damaged Panther that just dived in and destroyed the SU-85 that was shooting at it tried moving backwards up to base. Its motor got damaged at the fight, it was still at the island driving backwards in sight of a soviet infantry unit. Since it was real close to the lower edges I could strafe over its full length from the right bottom. The opponent tried to evade but just couldn't move out of the way fast enough. It was very close, he nearly made it. With the plane approaching from the other side I do think he should have saved his Panther.

You are surely not fighting only at the centre of the map and tanks are not always aligned parallel to the edges of a map. There are always flanks to protect and VPs close to the edges of a map. The fighting takes place there too and such situations are not rare, they happen all the time.

You won't have this problem at 1vs1 maps, they are just to small too make a real difference in approaching paths.
31 May 2021, 10:29 AM
#742
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2927 | Subs: 2



No problem, I will explain with the aid of a real game situation. As I played on steppes there was a fight about the island at the bottom with fuel and VP. Germans were playing on left side. A damaged Panther that just dived in and destroyed the SU-85 that was shooting at it tried moving backwards up to base. Its motor got damaged at the fight, it was still at the island driving backwards in sight of a soviet infantry unit. Since it was real close to the lower edges I could strafe over its full length from the right bottom. The opponent tried to evade but just couldn't move out of the way fast enough. It was very close, he nearly made it. With the plane approaching from the other side I do think he should have saved his Panther.

You are surely not fighting only at the centre of the map and tanks are not always aligned parallel to the edges of a map. There are always flanks to protect and VPs close to the edges of a map. The fighting takes place there too and such situations are not rare, they happen all the time.

You won't have this problem at 1vs1 maps, they are just to small too make a real difference in approaching paths.

Alright, I see your point. Thanks for the info.

Personally I am not yet sure what to weight higher: overall better design or more constant performance across all modes. Maybe some issues can be alleviated by tuning the plane speed as previously done for other abilities, but this obviously needs testing.
31 May 2021, 14:31 PM
#743
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279


Alright, I see your point. Thanks for the info.

Personally I am not yet sure what to weight higher: overall better design or more constant performance across all modes. Maybe some issues can be alleviated by tuning the plane speed as previously done for other abilities, but this obviously needs testing.

An approach might be a really fast plane, but a longer time between the smoke and the strafe. Then distance covered is less relevant but the time to dodge is consistent.
31 May 2021, 15:13 PM
#744
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2927 | Subs: 2


An approach might be a really fast plane, but a longer time between the smoke and the strafe. Then distance covered is less relevant but the time to dodge is consistent.

Wasn't this how OST frag bombs got treated or am I mistaken?
I assume this could be adjusted to a certain degree, however I am not sure how the engine will calculate the plane shots regarding ROF -> Will there be less shots, will there still be the normal amount of shots but fired very fast, or will the strafed area be enlarged?

Another issue is AA that could have issues to track faster planes, but I assume with the current limitations we have to give some at one point or the other...
Pip
31 May 2021, 16:34 PM
#745
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1585


An approach might be a really fast plane, but a longer time between the smoke and the strafe. Then distance covered is less relevant but the time to dodge is consistent.


Alternatively (Or, perhaps, in conjunction with); Would it be possible for the planes involved in these abilities to spawn a set distance from the aim point, rather than having them spawn at what I must assume is a fixed point on the map's "edge"?

That way it wouldnt make any difference at all where you place your smoke on the map, it would always arrive at exactly the same time.
31 May 2021, 19:12 PM
#746
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279


Wasn't this how OST frag bombs got treated or am I mistaken?
I assume this could be adjusted to a certain degree, however I am not sure how the engine will calculate the plane shots regarding ROF -> Will there be less shots, will there still be the normal amount of shots but fired very fast, or will the strafed area be enlarged?

be worth tryingf them all tbh, or someonme whos bettr than i to figure out which course is best, but imo it would be worth a try
Another issue is AA that could have issues to track faster planes, but I assume with the current limitations we have to give some at one point or the other...

AA wont shoot down strafes before they drop their payload anyways so i dont think it would be an issue in that area. i wouldnt change loiters anyways since they have a lasting effect so their initial strafe doesnt matter as much


jump backJump back to quoted post31 May 2021, 16:34 PMPip


Alternatively (Or, perhaps, in conjunction with); Would it be possible for the planes involved in these abilities to spawn a set distance from the aim point, rather than having them spawn at what I must assume is a fixed point on the map's "edge"?

That way it wouldnt make any difference at all where you place your smoke on the map, it would always arrive at exactly the same time.

whatever makes it reliable across modes im game for


31 May 2021, 19:56 PM
#747
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13370 | Subs: 1


AA wont shoot down strafes before they drop their payload anyways



it is possible although not probable.
31 May 2021, 20:22 PM
#748
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905


Alright, I see your point. Thanks for the info.

Personally I am not yet sure what to weight higher: overall better design or more constant performance across all modes. Maybe some issues can be alleviated by tuning the plane speed as previously done for other abilities, but this obviously needs testing.


You are welcome :-)

I'm in for anything that works and helps to even out abilities/units across game modes.
6 Jun 2021, 00:27 AM
#749
avatar of Zapartos

Posts: 10

So I was reading the patch changes all heavy tanks seem to come at CP 11 now except for KV2? Is this intended?
6 Jun 2021, 08:14 AM
#750
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

is it possible to get IL2 loiter in soviet reserve or conscript support tactics as well.
MMX
6 Jun 2021, 09:05 AM
#751
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

So I was reading the patch changes all heavy tanks seem to come at CP 11 now except for KV2? Is this intended?


Intended, i'd say. the KV-2 is a bit more potent than the IS-2 in both AI and AT duties, which justifies the slightly higher CP requirement.
6 Jun 2021, 09:09 AM
#752
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jun 2021, 09:05 AMMMX


Intended, i'd say. the KV-2 is a bit more potent than the IS-2 in both AI and AT duties, which justifies the slightly higher CP requirement.

But it's slower and has less range though(while mobile that is) and both commanders it's available in there is no off map. Seems a bit harsh to me.
6 Jun 2021, 09:44 AM
#753
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13370 | Subs: 1

The change has effected Tiger/Is-2/Pershing/Croc the rest of the Super heavies limited to 1 where not effected so it not just KV-2.
6 Jun 2021, 10:26 AM
#754
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17629 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jun 2021, 09:05 AMMMX


Intended, i'd say. the KV-2 is a bit more potent than the IS-2 in both AI and AT duties, which justifies the slightly higher CP requirement.

Its vastly inferior in AT.
It can't fight effectively anything larger then P4.
MMX
6 Jun 2021, 11:10 AM
#755
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1


Its vastly inferior in AT.
It can't fight effectively anything larger then P4.


Deflection damage
6 Jun 2021, 11:18 AM
#756
avatar of Zapartos

Posts: 10

Fair enough that makes sense, thanks for explaining it to me guys!
6 Jun 2021, 11:42 AM
#757
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17629 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jun 2021, 11:10 AMMMX


Deflection damage

Massive reload time.
MMX
6 Jun 2021, 11:57 AM
#758
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1


Massive reload time.


yeah, about 50% higher reload, but also 50% greater base damage. and 50% deflection damage on every non-penetrating hit, which no other comparable tank has.

the counter-intuitive thing about the kv-2 is that the deflection damage makes it perform better than other heavies the more armor the target has. in fact, the kv-2 is killing a tiger faster than an is-2 would, despite having slower reload and lower pen. the difference is even more pronounced against ultra heavy armor like the kt or jagdtiger.

6 Jun 2021, 12:08 PM
#759
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17629 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jun 2021, 11:57 AMMMX


yeah, about 50% higher reload, but also 50% greater base damage. and 50% deflection damage on every non-penetrating hit, which no other comparable tank has.

the counter-intuitive thing about the kv-2 is that the deflection damage makes it perform better than other heavies the more armor the target has. in fact, the kv-2 is killing a tiger faster than an is-2 would, despite having slower reload and lower pen. the difference is even more pronounced against ultra heavy armor like the kt or jagdtiger.


Neither IS nor KV will be trying to facetank frontally in a slugfest against KT, JT or ele and both do alright against rear armor.

Its the vet2ost P4/OKW P4, panthers and tigers where you'll see most clearly performance game.
I don't even know why I need to say it.

KV-2 CAN engage tanks, it CAN beat tiger or panther with lucky RNG, but its nowhere near IS-2 in reliability and efficiency against heavier armor.

It is vastly superior vs infantry and sufficient vs meds.
MMX
6 Jun 2021, 12:58 PM
#760
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1


Neither IS nor KV will be trying to facetank frontally in a slugfest against KT, JT or ele and both do alright against rear armor.

Its the vet2ost P4/OKW P4, panthers and tigers where you'll see most clearly performance game.
I don't even know why I need to say it.

KV-2 CAN engage tanks, it CAN beat tiger or panther with lucky RNG, but its nowhere near IS-2 in reliability and efficiency against heavier armor.

It is vastly superior vs infantry and sufficient vs meds.


No one said either tank would frontally engage a Jagdtiger and expect to come out on top. The point I've been trying to illustrate is that, contrary to what you've claimed earlier, the KV-2 is very much capable of engaging heavily armored tanks - even more so than the IS-2 thanks to the innate deflection damage. Against lighter armor, such as a Panther or Vet Pz.IV, both tanks are actually pretty much equal in terms of AT. The graph below shows this:



This is the probability distribution for both the IS-2 (blue) and KV-2 (orange) to kill a Pz.IV, Panther and Tiger Ace at 40 m, assuming all shots hit for the sake of simplicity (The Ace is chosen solely for illustrative purposes. It as it has the same armor of the regular Tiger, but greater HP pool and, thus, the curves in the plot overlap less).
You can clearly see that against the more lightly armored Pz.IV the IS-2 has a slight edge as it is guaranteed to pen the target every time and every shot deals the full amount of damage.
However, the lower the chance to penetrate gets due to higher armor the contribution of deflection damage gets greater and the KV-2 starts to deal more DPM than the IS-2. Against a vanilla Panther both tanks are already roughly equal in terms of T2K and against anything heavier the KV-2 is superior (if only slightly).
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