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Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

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22 Apr 2021, 07:59 AM
#381
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2021, 06:53 AMSmartie
We mentioned the issues with OKW's 2nd tier commanders since the release of the 1.0 Version. Nothing changed so far. And we already know that only fine tuning is coming in the next versions.
We just have to realise that a majority of the mod team members dont want any more changes to 2nd OKW commanders. In my eyes it's a huge missed opportunity but further posts just seem to be a waste of time in this thread to be honest.

Yeah, it's a pity, because a few small changes could possibly fix blatant issues
22 Apr 2021, 08:59 AM
#382
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 837 | Subs: 1


Yeah, it's a pity, because a few small changes could possibly fix blatant issues


Completly agree. It's especially frustrating because the mod Team turned shit Soviet / wehr commanders in really good ones. OKW commanders would only need small changes as you said but they just dont want to do it.
22 Apr 2021, 09:15 AM
#383
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Besides Scavenge, I don't really see what other OKW commanders would need. OKW has the biggest set of viable commanders in the game imo. Apart from Scavenge (that is getting 2 buffs already, although I don't think that's enough) all commanders are popular across the different modes.

The goal of this patch is not to create more top tier commanders, it's to bring as many commanders to the middle tier as possible (definition of middle tier being good/great but not blatantly overpowered or overpopular). And the majority of OKW commanders is already at that middle tier.

Apart from Scavenge, OKW seems to have one of the healthiest commander popularity diversity of all the factions: https://coh2stats.com/stats/month/1614556800/4v4/wgerman?statsSource=all
22 Apr 2021, 09:47 AM
#384
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 449

Thorough Salvage
Volksgrenadier repair at a speed of 1.25 per model for a total of 6.25.

Shouldn't this be 1.25 -> 1,1 / total of 5.5?

OST already has similar skill with 1.1 speed per model.
OKW already has good repair speed combined with sturmpio + tier2 truck.

6.25 is almost the speed of normal engineers(pio/RE 1.6 per model).
22 Apr 2021, 09:54 AM
#385
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

Besides perhaps Scavenge, I don't really see what other OKW commanders would need. OKW has the biggest set of viable commanders in the game imo. Apart from Scavenge (that is getting 2 buffs already) and Fortifications (1 big buff and some small ones) all commanders are popular across the different modes.

The goal of this patch is not to create more top tier commanders, it's to bring as many commanders to the middle tier as possible. And the majority of OKW commanders is already at that middle tier.

I don't see how those commanders are any good
How frequent the 221 is in those games, the 15 fuel car that comes after 15 fuel of tech and can barely go toe to toe with unupgraded UC? How well does Panzer Commander synergize with a commander that has an heavy that doesn't use it (meaning you will have at best another panzer 4 with it, and surely not a panther ehich benefits the most from it)?
How reliable is the Sturmtiger, especially compared to the avre?
22 Apr 2021, 09:58 AM
#386
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8


I don't see how those commanders are any good
How frequent the 221 is in those games, the 15 fuel car that comes after 15 fuel of tech and can barely go toe to toe with unupgraded UC? How well does Panzer Commander synergize with a commander that has an heavy that doesn't use it (meaning you will have at best another panzer 4 with it, and surely not a panther ehich benefits the most from it)?
How reliable is the Sturmtiger, especially compared to the avre?


You have confused "viable commander" with "10/10 potency for every single ability meta choice".
22 Apr 2021, 10:04 AM
#387
avatar of PatFenis

Posts: 116



jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2021, 09:58 AMKatitof


Snip


True, but I have to agree that the sturmtiger to this day is an absolute meme unit, unlike the AVRE which is an effective anti blob tool, what the ST should have been aswell (atleast in the game).

22 Apr 2021, 10:06 AM
#388
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8





True, but I have to agree that the sturmtiger to this day is an absolute meme unit, unlike the AVRE which is an effective anti blob tool, what the ST should have been aswell (atleast in the game).



ST should never be in the game in the first place.

The whole principle the unit is build around does not fit CoH spirit series.
22 Apr 2021, 10:11 AM
#389
avatar of PatFenis

Posts: 116

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2021, 10:06 AMKatitof


ST should never be in the game in the first place.

The whole principle the unit is build around does not fit CoH spirit series.


That is another topic, but tbh. I would not mind to just outright remove the Sturmtiger and put something more useful into the doctrine. Its essentially a 4-ability commander in 99% of the games its used (from personal experience)
22 Apr 2021, 10:13 AM
#390
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2021, 10:06 AMKatitof


ST should never be in the game in the first place.

The whole principle the unit is build around does not fit CoH spirit series.

Same goes for the avre
22 Apr 2021, 10:14 AM
#391
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2021, 09:58 AMKatitof


You have confused "viable commander" with "10/10 potency for every single ability meta choice".

No, 221 is objevtively shit and that's why it's completely ignored
There's nothing viable about too many OLW doctrinal slots
22 Apr 2021, 10:17 AM
#392
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 837 | Subs: 1

Besides Scavenge, I don't really see what other OKW commanders would need. OKW has the biggest set of viable commanders in the game imo. Apart from Scavenge (that is getting 2 buffs already, although I don't think that's enough) and Fortifications (1 big buff and some small ones) all commanders are popular across the different modes.

The goal of this patch is not to create more top tier commanders, it's to bring as many commanders to the middle tier as possible (definition of middle tier being good/great but not blatantly overpowered or overpopular). And the majority of OKW commanders is already at that middle tier.

Apart from Scavenge, OKW seems to have one of the healthiest commander popularity diversity of all the factions: https://coh2stats.com/stats/month/1614556800/4v4/wgerman?statsSource=all


I think you're creating here a wrong dilemma:
A healthy commander poluarity does not mean that small changes to existing commanders are not needed.
And nobody asked for major improvements to make commanders overpopular / overpowered.
There are reasonable arguments to improve units or abilities that are lackluster and so far nobody of the Team has explained why this arguments are unjustified.

- 221:The unit s much more expensive in fuel than the UC AND locked behind the truck but does not nearly have the same impact. At least a price reduction is needed or make it buildable without the truck
- incendiary rounds in Firestorm: Why should Firestorm have the "incendiary barrage" that only affects 1 unit when US "Urban Assault Kit" benefits 2 units (Riflemen and RE)?
US players have usually 2-3 rifles and with this commander 2 RE. That means that the ability is useful for 5 units, incendiary barrage only benefits max. 2 leigs. It's a question of consistency to balance this discrepancy out imo.
Yourself suggested some weeks ago that the Luchs could get incendiary amunition for example. Why not give this at least a try?

Making the 221 cheaper and giving incendiary ammunition to another unit is hardly game breaking in my eyes.
That being said the changes to Fortress are very welcome.
22 Apr 2021, 10:31 AM
#393
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2021, 10:17 AMSmartie

- 221:The unit s much more expensive in fuel than the UC AND locked behind the truck but does not nearly have the same impact. At least a price reduction is needed or make it buildable without the truck


I don't mind buffing 221 in other ways, but if timing is buffed like this I can assure you this will completely destroy UKF/USA in 1v1. Don't even bother to come up with 'but you can now build RE in t0!'.
22 Apr 2021, 11:01 AM
#394
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 837 | Subs: 1



I don't mind buffing 221 in other ways, but if timing is buffed like this I can assure you this will completely destroy UKF/USA in 1v1. Don't even bother to come up with 'but you can now build RE in t0!'.


It was just a Suggestion. A lower fuel price would completly allright for me.
22 Apr 2021, 14:41 PM
#395
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3424 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2021, 11:01 AMSmartie


It was just a Suggestion. A lower fuel price would completly allright for me.


And then you can build the first one sooner and get a second to seal the deal with USF/UKF still stuck without any reliable coutner?

22 Apr 2021, 14:53 PM
#396
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2021, 14:41 PMEsxile


And then you can build the first one sooner and get a second to seal the deal with USF/UKF still stuck without any reliable coutner?


Small arms from 2 mainlines counter it already
22 Apr 2021, 15:24 PM
#397
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1352


Small arms from 2 mainlines counter it already


Good players actually use kubels to displace infantry behind cover while sturmpios run at them. You'll see that often in higher levels of play. Kubel driving at units behind cover. If successful, you bleed and force one squad away while your volks come into play. But based on your post history and some serious need for copium, I'm guessing that facts are not something you admire.
22 Apr 2021, 15:41 PM
#398
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660



Good players actually use kubels to displace infantry behind cover while sturmpios run at them.
You'll see that often in higher levels of play. Kubel driving at units behind cover. If successful, you bleed and force one squad away while your volks come into play. But based on your post history and some serious need for copium, I'm guessing that facts are not something you admire.


What are you even talking about? What has kubel to do with how effective infantry is against 221?
OKW can use kubel to drive out of cover infantry, because that's a 210 mp unit that if lucky, will get to vet 1 and stand behind some sightblocker to give recon.
That happens when the engagement has already started, in early game where squads are scattered
In what kind of delusional dream world you live where WFA can't counter kubelwagen because of that? And how does that relate to a 30 fuel vehicle that will soak up tons of damage if trying to do the same?https://youtu.be/y2LxBQ1pjPY
Not only USF can get at nades faster and royal engineers have smg that will obliterate any 221 trying to do that, but both factions unlock doctrinal and non doctrinal light cars that soft counter them quite easily.
Nonsense, also the sheer irony of talking about high level play when justifying how a unit that was NEVER seen in high level play is fine is moronic.
22 Apr 2021, 15:46 PM
#399
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

I would honestly take a StuG III E over a Sturmtiger at this point.

There's also voice lines for it as well.

And an addition of a 250/251 to a more infantry focused doc would use the rest of the unique voice lines that the OKW has for units.
Pip
22 Apr 2021, 15:47 PM
#400
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2021, 10:06 AMKatitof


ST should never be in the game in the first place.

The whole principle the unit is build around does not fit CoH spirit series.


I agree with you, for once.

I think the AVRE could very easily and convincingly be turned into a Brummbar/105 type unit, though I really don't know how you could change the Sturmtiger and have it still feel as though it's acting "correctly". Both units really should be changed though, oneshot abilities like them (and the old B4) are abhorrent design, and do not fit CoH2's gameplay loop.


On topic for OKW commanders: Scavenge clearly needs a rework, you're almost always better served by picking Overwatch, it really doesn't provide anything terribly unique or interesting (Though the Ostwind is a fantastic unit). Beutepanzer have been suggested before: Some sort of Beutepanzer Sherman (Some type of command tank?) may be an interesting avenue to explore.

GoD and Luftwaffe similarly could do with some tweaks, though they're seemingly not too unpopular. I'm not sure what you might do with GoD, but I wouldn't mind seeing Fallschirmjager tweaked to have a more defined role (Even if that results in them being made worse at some ranges) so that the commander doesn't crutch so hard on them. This might leave room for a "Luftwaffe Ground Forces" squad of some description, or the commonly requested Ostwind.

Other than that;, as Sanders has said; OKW's commander selection is fairly healthy, seemingly. I'd LIKE to see changes to Elite Armoured, but the numbers imply it is pretty well balanced.
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