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Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

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9 Apr 2021, 17:29 PM
#181
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11978 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2021, 15:08 PMPip


To be fair, in this proposed version of "Elite Armored" it seems that HEAT shells are just a pen-improving passive. In such a case, even if the Jagdtiger got them, it'd really not make any difference to the unit.

(I don't think it can even use Panzer Commanders anyway).

That said: I don't see Elite Armoured as needing either HEAT shells being changed in this way, nor do I see why it needs the Jagdtiger. The current HEAT shells in conjunction with the Panther or Jagdpanzer provide fantastic AT power already, albeit at a munitions premium.

I would like to see the Sturmtiger either changed to be less of a meme, or replaced with something else in the doctrine, but I can't really see the wisdom in giving that commander more AT power than it already has... it's already incredibly heavily geared in that direction as it is.

(Also, unless they're the OSTheer Opel Blitz', I'd rather have the 221/223 than the Fuersturm Blitz, though I would like to see the 221/223 improved/reworked a bit... it's currently not quite what it could/should be)

The change has more to with theme of the commanders:
JT is not breakthrough unit and ST has little to do with elite.

ST does not benefit from Panzer commander or the "heat rounds" and does not really work with KT with heat rounds.

On the other hand JT should not be have a powerful off map like assault artillery.

"Heat rounds" although presented as an AT improvement actually work in AI with extra damage as I posted yesterday and imo would be better as simple passive.

As for JT in elite armor imo it fits the theme and it would improve the viability of the commander in large modes. Changes solidify Elite armor as a prime AT commander.

The main issue was the economy vehicles that had to go and it actually fits scavenger better.
9 Apr 2021, 17:33 PM
#182
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 129

Scavenge getting a T-34-76 as a replacement to the Ostwind I think is a neat idea. It would give the doctrine something really unique to OKW by having a cheaper (and arguably the weakest) medium. It also fits insanely well flavor wise.

9 Apr 2021, 17:50 PM
#183
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11978 | Subs: 1

"Panzerfusiliers
Due to the power of Panzerfusiliers with 3 G43 rifles, the unit does not need to be able to pick-up additional weaponry when upgraded.

G43s now take two weapon slots."

Since VG do need to pick up addition weaponry allow them to have 1 weapons so that OKW can pick dropped weapons.
9 Apr 2021, 18:04 PM
#184
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3085 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2021, 17:29 PMVipper
ST does not benefit from Panzer commander or the "heat rounds" and does not really work with KT with heat rounds


That's not an argument for replacing it with the Jagdtiger though. That unit wouldn't (be able to) benefit from either of those abilities either.
9 Apr 2021, 18:17 PM
#185
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11978 | Subs: 1



That's not an argument for replacing it with the Jagdtiger though. That unit wouldn't (be able to) benefit from either of those abilities either.

Yes it not an argument for moving JT in elite armor, it an argument for moving ST out of it.

(although JT would benefit from HEAT rounds in their current implementation some people even claim that JT with HEAT round in their current implementation would be OP).

JT fit the theme of "elite armor" better than any other commander.
(One could try replacing the Lefh in overwatch with JT.)

Both commander would be viable in 1vs1 and Elite armor would probably be more viable in large modes with the suggested changes.
9 Apr 2021, 18:29 PM
#186
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

You can refer to me by name. I maintain that a JT with the help of Heat being able to almost one shot medium allies would be unreasonably OP. And you know that too well. There is no need to buff the JT pen or dmg, that's just bad design. If you must change the unit, give it something else. Your argument, and this feeling is shared with sanders, is void of reason.
9 Apr 2021, 18:48 PM
#187
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3085 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2021, 18:17 PMVipper
(although JT would benefit from HEAT rounds in their current implementation some people even claim that JT with HEAT round in their current implementation would be OP)

Obviously the JT would never have access to HEAT shells, that would be OP. Same for any other heavy tank you'd put there in the Sturmtiger's place. The Tiger II with all the upgrades and abilities is the true elite armor within Elite Armored, but at least that unit is gated behind a huge amount of resources and a crawling speed.


jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2021, 18:17 PMVipper
JT fit the theme of "elite armor" better than any other commander

Why? Jagdtigers were not elite armor, they were just ordinary (although heavy) tank destroyers. They were generally crewed by very inexperienced crews because the Germans didn't have anyone else left, which was one of the main reasons for their poor performance IRL.


I maintain that a JT with the help of Heat being able to almost one shot medium

It would do 390 damage, not even close to almost oneshotting a 640hp medium tank. But it would allow it to kill a medium in two shots (again, like in the old days when it had 320 damage) which combined with its vetted 5s reload would be OP for sure.
Pip
9 Apr 2021, 18:56 PM
#188
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1412

My opinion is that Elite Armoured doesnt really need further help on the AT front, HEAT and Panzer Commander give OKW a pretty nice edge in fights between armoured units. The "extra AI" from HEAT shells is not really that big of a deal, and is only really relevant for the Panzer IV.

IF the commander needs anything, I'd want either an "Elite" AI vehicle that isnt a meme like the Sturmtiger (It doesnt need to be a superheavy, the Ostwind would be neat, though it isnt exactly an "Elite" vehicle), or some ability usable by non-AT vehicles (Luchs, FlakHT) to provide a comparable AI bonus.

And perhaps tweaks to the 221/223. I like the unit a lot, but it feels kind of inefficient as a "cache" that costs population/fuel later on in the game.


It definitely doesn't need the Jagdtiger, nor any particular improvement to its' AT performance (Especially not a Penetration increase passive).
9 Apr 2021, 19:12 PM
#189
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 3080 | Subs: 2


Obviously the JT would never have access to HEAT shells, that would be OP. Same for any other heavy tank you'd put there in the Sturmtiger's place. The Tiger II with all the upgrades and abilities is the true elite armor within Elite Armored, but at least that unit is gated behind a huge amount of resources and a crawling speed.



Why? Jagdtigers were not elite armor, they were just ordinary (although heavy) tank destroyers. They were generally crewed by very inexperienced crews because the Germans didn't have anyone else left, which was one of the main reasons for their poor performance IRL.



It would do 390 damage, not even close to almost oneshotting a 640hp medium tank. But it would allow it to kill a medium in two shots (again, like in the old days when it had 320 damage) which combined with its vetted 5s reload would be OP for sure.


Otto Carius, one of the top tank aces was leading one of the 2 Heavy Tank Destroyer Battalions, the 512th equipped with the Jagdtigers so they were indeed arguably "Elite" in that regard at least.

But he does write in his book called Tigers in the Mud about a case where an inexperienced tank commander did order his JT to reverse into a ditch or something getting the vehicle stuck but I don't remember any other such scenario.

The problem with any and all tanks that were deployed on the Western Front was the terrain, bocage country isn't exactly the wide open steppes of Russia where German tanks using their armor and armament made a name for themselves and their crews.

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2021, 18:56 PMPip
My opinion is that Elite Armoured doesnt really need further help on the AT front, HEAT and Panzer Commander give OKW a pretty nice edge in fights between armoured units. The "extra AI" from HEAT shells is not really that big of a deal, and is only really relevant for the Panzer IV.

IF the commander needs anything, I'd want either an "Elite" AI vehicle that isnt a meme like the Sturmtiger (It doesnt need to be a superheavy, the Ostwind would be neat, though it isnt exactly an "Elite" vehicle), or some ability usable by non-AT vehicles (Luchs, FlakHT) to provide a comparable AI bonus.

And perhaps tweaks to the 221/223. I like the unit a lot, but it feels kind of inefficient as a "cache" that costs population/fuel later on in the game.


It definitely doesn't need the Jagdtiger, nor any particular improvement to its' AT performance (Especially not a Penetration increase passive).


Maybe something like the Command Tiger or a different variant of it? Again it can have the s-mine launcher and other abilities like a smoke screen, tank shock and so forth to bring something new and unique to the table for the OKW and be a nice alternative to the KT.
9 Apr 2021, 19:28 PM
#190
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11978 | Subs: 1


....

Why? Jagdtigers were not elite armor,...
...

And JT where definitively not breakthrough tanks.
Pip
9 Apr 2021, 19:30 PM
#191
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1412


Maybe something like the Command Tiger or a different variant of it? Again it can have the s-mine launcher and other abilities like a smoke screen, tank shock and so forth to bring something new and unique to the table for the OKW and be a nice alternative to the KT.


Maybe? I can't say I know exactly what the Command Tiger's statistics really are, I know it's (mentioned?) in the files somewhere, but I haven't really

I'd be interested to see, though I would be inclined to veto the idea if the Command Tiger necessarily has a "Command Aura". Auras in general are very prickly for balance, and I think such a thing would be difficult to prevent from being overpowering when combined with HEAT PIVs or PVs.


Two other queries: What does the "Tank Shock" ability do, exactly? And when you say "Smoke Screen", do you mean "Panzer Tac" smoke, or something along the lines of the Sherman smoke launchers, Comet/Cromwell Smoke Shells, or the Churchill "Infantry support smoke"?

Someone has previously suggested that the Churchill's smoke trail be changed to provide yellow cover to infantry within, rather than blocking vision, I feel like such an ability might be an interesting alternative to the vision blocking/warcrime smoke that factions currently have access to. A potential Command Tiger being able to launch smoke shells that specifically benefit infantry units might be an interesting niche, and I think it would fit the "Elite" theming.

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2021, 19:28 PMVipper

And JT where definitively not breakthrough tanks.


It certainly Breaks Through enemy armour.
9 Apr 2021, 19:33 PM
#192
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11978 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2021, 19:30 PMPip
...
It certainly Breaks Through enemy armour.

Nope.
"We should be waiting not moving like panzer" as the Elefant crew says
9 Apr 2021, 19:57 PM
#193
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3085 | Subs: 7

Otto Carius, one of the top tank aces was leading one of the 2 Heavy Tank Destroyer Battalions, the 512th equipped with the Jagdtigers so they were indeed arguably "Elite" in that regard at least


I said generally, not always.
Here's a lazy wikipedia quote:
Insufficient training of vehicle crews and their poor morale during the last stage of the war were the biggest problems for Jagdtiger crewmen under Carius's command. At the Ruhr Pocket, two Jagdtiger commanders failed to attack an American armored column about 1.5 km (1 mile) away in broad daylight for fear of attracting an Allied air attack, even though the Jagdtigers were well-camouflaged.[14]

The source being his own book.


But anyway, let's get back to OKW.
9 Apr 2021, 19:57 PM
#194
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 3080 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2021, 19:30 PMPip


Maybe? I can't say I know exactly what the Command Tiger's statistics really are, I know it's (mentioned?) in the files somewhere, but I haven't really

I'd be interested to see, though I would be inclined to veto the idea if the Command Tiger necessarily has a "Command Aura". Auras in general are very prickly for balance, and I think such a thing would be difficult to prevent from being overpowering when combined with HEAT PIVs or PVs.


Two other queries: What does the "Tank Shock" ability do, exactly? And when you say "Smoke Screen", do you mean "Panzer Tac" smoke, or something along the lines of the Sherman smoke launchers, Comet/Cromwell Smoke Shells, or the Churchill "Infantry support smoke"?

Someone has previously suggested that the Churchill's smoke trail be changed to provide yellow cover to infantry within, rather than blocking vision, I feel like such an ability might be an interesting alternative to the vision blocking/warcrime smoke that factions currently have access to. A potential Command Tiger being able to launch smoke shells that specifically benefit infantry units might be an interesting niche, and I think it would fit the "Elite" theming.



It certainly Breaks Through enemy armour.


No I was talking about the OKW "Command" Tiger which is already in the game, or at least that's what they refer to it as.

As far as my idea goes, if you've ever played the original CoH and specifically it's Tiger Ace campaign, the Tiger there has this tank shock ability which has it go a bit faster I think and suppress enemy infantry in the area around it so it can run them over basically.

For the Smoke, technically it should act as the Ostheer Panzer Tactician since that's how the little turret mounted side dispensers on it worked in real life so it makes sense, but for the sake of I guess balance and so forth it could have a similar smoke pod ability as the Shermans altho they also had smoke shells if I'm not mistaken but I'm not entirely sure about that.

You can read more about the original CoH Tiger Ace and it's abilities in the campaign here: https://companyofheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Tiger_Tank_"205";

Edit:



I said generally, not always.
Here's a lazy wikipedia quote:

The source being his own book.


But anyway, let's get back to OKW.


Sorry for the late reply but it's only now that I noticed your comment.

Lack of experienced tank commanders and crewmen in general were a problem I'm not denying that, as well as other factors such as lack of fuel, ammunition, vehicles in general, only about 90 JTs were made from what I remember, spare parts and so on and so forth.

However like I said before Otto Carius was one of the top tank aces and they didn't just give 70 ton vehicles to anybody to drive around and operate so again in that regard at least they were somewhat "Elite", as were the Tiger and King Tiger crews as well.
9 Apr 2021, 20:25 PM
#195
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17522 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2021, 19:33 PMVipper

Nope.
"We should be waiting not moving like panzer" as the Elefant crew says

We're now balancing the game around voice lines units use?

Also, splendid change of PFs. They already have strong weapon upgrade that adds another man, just got CQC buff for early game and have excellent scaling, unit with so many perks does not need to pick more weapons.
9 Apr 2021, 22:03 PM
#196
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 492

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2021, 19:33 PMVipper

Nope.
"We should be waiting not moving like panzer" as the Elefant crew says


it was a play on the doctrine name
10 Apr 2021, 02:27 AM
#197
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

Panzerfusiliers
Due to the power of Panzerfusiliers with 3 G43 rifles, the unit does not need to be able to pick-up additional weaponry when upgraded.

G43s now take two weapon slots.


is this a joke they lose to penals , should we remove penal weapon slot ?

i know the fanboys are always raging about PF but come on don't fall for the meme







1 cost 300 and has 2 weapon slot + tier 4 uprgade bonus

the other cost 295 and 90 mun has 0 weapon slot, and is weaker early game

at close range is literally up to the last man alive

really hope the mod team actually do some testes instead of trying to pander to people that cry on this forum for no reason

fun fact it's the same for stg volks having stg with 2 weapon slot, for no reason wince they are basically a bar but i would say it's ok for them just cause fan boy would flod the forum if they ever get only 1 slot
10 Apr 2021, 05:34 AM
#198
avatar of Gbpirate
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 952

I've seen a lot of suggestions about Panzerfusiliers here (ctrl+f is your friend).

My biggest grip with the unit is that it's a counter to soviet tier 1 (M3 scout car) builds in its current (live) state. At the minimum I'd like to keep their snare tied to the same Volksgrenadier requirement or removing it altogether.

To give the squad more flavour I think it could have some unique abilities for a frontline squad that tie-in to the "grand offensive" or "breakthrough" themes of the commanders its in. The squad already has a flare so that's cool. What if we doubled-down on the scouting/early warning aspect of the unit while also keeping the dedicated anti-tank vs. anti-infantry upgrade path?

After some thinking, what if in each upgrade path they got
1)new weapon
2)vision ability (could also be a raw vision bonus (3-5 meters; less than pioneer's 42-range)
3)ability to plant a mine


Anti-tank route:
1) 1-2 Panzerschrecks + AT snare
2) Vehicle detection ability through FoW (similar to 222 ability; I think Soviets have this ability too?
3) USF clone of light AT mine OR Teller mine.

Anti-Infantry route:
1) G43 upgrade (not LMG; want the squad to be mobile) + grenade (could be model 24 or Bundle?)
2) Detect infantry through FoW (akin to 222 ability but less powerful
3) Single S-mine patch.


10 Apr 2021, 06:31 AM
#199
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1489


You forgot about AT package.
You can't have dual shreck on cheap 6 man platform.

Now i'm convinced you never actually read. The guy literally said they won't get shrecks anymore.
10 Apr 2021, 08:26 AM
#200
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11978 | Subs: 1

Heavy Fortification
Heavy Fortifications will no longer allow Volksgrenadiers to plant S-mines. These have been transferred to Sturmpioneers to prevent these mines from being too readily available.

S-Mines moved to Sturmpioneers from Volksgrenadiers

SP are over burden, move s mine to SP if you want but do no remove from VG possibly add simple wire to VGs.

Panzerfusiliers

OKW should be able to pick up droped weapons. leave 1 slot for VGs (possibly for PF also)
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