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Ostheer Commander Revamp 2021

Pip
20 Mar 2021, 16:36 PM
#21
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Mar 2021, 13:25 PMBaba
First of all things: Its WEHRMACHT.

Ostheer is a CoH1 invention that stuck for whatever reason


They're called "Ostheer" instead of "Wehrmacht" because the original German faction in CoH1 was the "Wehrmacht". Using the term "Ostheer" prevents confusion. OKW are ostensibly the "Wehrmacht" as well, but we obviously don't call them that.

Same reason we use USF and UKF to refer to the American and British armies in CoH2, because the latter two terms were used for CoH1 factions.
20 Mar 2021, 17:00 PM
#22
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 374 | Subs: 1

Coh1 is an inferior game that no one plays anymore. Wehrmacht is the correct name of the faction.
Pip
20 Mar 2021, 17:09 PM
#23
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Mar 2021, 17:00 PMFarlion
Coh1 is an inferior game that no one plays anymore. Wehrmacht is the correct name of the faction.


Plenty of people still play CoH1, though I personally much prefer CoH2. Check Steamcharts if you don't believe me. CoH2 certainly has a higher playerbase, but CoH1 is hardly a ghost town.

There's no reason to be more confusing than you need to be. Ostheer is a fine term.
20 Mar 2021, 17:24 PM
#24
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



It means the two abilities (flare/scope) are way too similar:
- both give sight at a part of enemy frontline
- both are available at the same vehicles
- both are limited in use by the current location of that vehicles

The recon plane can be used anywhere, giving you sight anywhere. So it is a completely different recon ability. Swapping it for an ability that its pretty similar to another existing one in the same commander is a waste of a commander ability slot. Its like having two close combat elite units at the same commander which only differ in the grenades they use.

so why does it matter if they overlap.
20 Mar 2021, 17:28 PM
#25
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Mar 2021, 17:00 PMFarlion
Coh1 is an inferior game that no one plays anymore
I just want to tell you that Every one is entitled to their shit taste and they are wrong.
20 Mar 2021, 17:49 PM
#26
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 208

Regarding ''Relief infantry'', i posted an idea a while back, that was met with a lukewarm response. But i feel like giving my idea a second chance of review:

Instead of an active ability, it would now be passive, removing the OSSTR unit as a call-in.
All existing infantry units would have 2 options of reinforcement, standard or OSSTR, quality vs quantity choice.

The core unit,(pio,mg42,gren,pzgren,mortar,pak40) be it between 25% to 75% OSSTR, would still retain its abilities (build/repair,riflenade,bundlenade,upgrades etc) but would now have OSSTR durability and rifles/damage.

example could be a pzgren that has 1 model, instead of reinforcing 34mpx3=102mp. Could also reinforce with OSSTR 16mpx3=48mp.
the Pzgren has now 1x stg44 and 3x k98's, weaker, but can still throw bundlenades and upgrade to 2x pzschrecks.

inspired by the panzer general games, and merge ability from conscripts, the purpose is if you get hammered, this could get you back on your feet, if you manage to keep your units alive, and could be devestating if you have or retake a lot of teamweapons. i think this idea sticks close to the theme of ''relief infantry''


This would be impossible to implement. There's simply no way to have 2 different reinforce abilities on a squad.
20 Mar 2021, 18:16 PM
#27
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 210

thanks for clearing that up
20 Mar 2021, 20:11 PM
#28
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905


so why does it matter if they overlap.


Isn't that obvious? More of the same abilities at the same commander mean that the commander is less versatile and less powerful. You don't want a commander with 5 kinds of damage-dealing offmap abilities amd you don't want to have one with 5 recon vehicle options either. You need a good mix of different abilities. A recon plane adds more versatility than another vehicle based recon option to the doctrine. If you really want vehicle flares you should swap the scope upgrade for it. But I'm not sure if that wouldn't be a downgrade of the doctrine because the scope is quite good. If you don't like the recon plane, propose a different ability that gives something the doctrine does not have in a similar way already please.
21 Mar 2021, 00:31 AM
#29
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Mar 2021, 17:49 PMOlekman


This would be impossible to implement. There's simply no way to have 2 different reinforce abilities on a squad.


Presumably models can be added to the queue as I suggested though?

I've never payed close enough attention to be sure, but mixed squads like the USF captain will queue an officer model if it's missing right?
21 Mar 2021, 07:38 AM
#30
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 208



Presumably models can be added to the queue as I suggested though?

I've never payed close enough attention to be sure, but mixed squads like the USF captain will queue an officer model if it's missing right?


Every squad has a set "loadout" of entities. It's defined by entity blueprint and number of specific entity blueprint. For example, Conscript squad's loadout is 6 Conscripts (I can't be bothered to look up the exact blueprint name). When they get the Mobilize Reserves upgrade, the "Conscript sergeant" entity gets permanently added to their loadout.

I don't remember the details, but I think that in cases where the loadout entities have different costs (e.g. Officer models in Major, Lieutenant and Captain squad at WFA release) the cheaper ones get priority. You can't decide "I want to reinforce with this specific model", because they get reinforced from squad's loadout. Once you add an entity to the loadout, it's treated as permanent squad member, so if you just add Ostruppen entities to loadouts of those squads, it would be possible to reinforce those squads to 8+ models.
21 Mar 2021, 10:53 AM
#31
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1681

Hulldown shouldnt require infantry
21 Mar 2021, 10:59 AM
#32
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Mar 2021, 17:00 PMFarlion
Coh1 is an inferior game that no one plays anymore. Wehrmacht is the correct name of the faction.


Wehrmacht was the name of the combined German armed forces, the Heer (army), Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine. Ostheer means Eastern Army and is a very accurate name. According to Gordon A. Harrison 2002 (Cross-Channel Attack), by 1942 the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (OKW) was in command of the West Front Armies while Oberkommando des Heeres (OKH) was in command of the three (or four since south was split in A and B) army groups on the Soviet front.
21 Mar 2021, 11:10 AM
#33
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Mar 2021, 07:38 AMOlekman


Every squad has a set "loadout" of entities. It's defined by entity blueprint and number of specific entity blueprint. For example, Conscript squad's loadout is 6 Conscripts (I can't be bothered to look up the exact blueprint name). When they get the Mobilize Reserves upgrade, the "Conscript sergeant" entity gets permanently added to their loadout.

I don't remember the details, but I think that in cases where the loadout entities have different costs (e.g. Officer models in Major, Lieutenant and Captain squad at WFA release) the cheaper ones get priority. You can't decide "I want to reinforce with this specific model", because they get reinforced from squad's loadout. Once you add an entity to the loadout, it's treated as permanent squad member, so if you just add Ostruppen entities to loadouts of those squads, it would be possible to reinforce those squads to 8+ models.


That all makes sense.

Is there any way the conscript merge logic could be abused? Like maybe the squad could have a nominal loadout of 5 models, but reinforce is limited to only 4 models? Buildings could then just 'hold' x number of ostruppen models and issue merge commands to any squad in range until they exhaust their pool of models.
21 Mar 2021, 12:41 PM
#34
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 208


Is there any way the conscript merge logic could be abused? Like maybe the squad could have a nominal loadout of 5 models, but reinforce is limited to only 4 models?


That's impossible. There's no way to artificially block reinforcement, and the only way you can modify a squad's loadout is by adding more entities to it - you cannot remove anything from it.


Buildings could then just 'hold' x number of ostruppen models and issue merge commands to any squad in range until they exhaust their pool of models.


I haven't tried making a "building squad" consisting of building entity and infantry entities, which could merge with other squads, but I bet it would have a wacky outcome. Plus, it sounds like just adding Merge ability to Ostruppen, but making them unable to move out of HQ sector or making their off-brand Merge only work in HQ sector...

Having typed that out, perhaps giving Ostruppen Merge ability that can only work in HQ sectors wouldn't a bad way of reworking Relief Infantry. It would be roughly as cost efficient as Conscript Merge (about 1.21 Health-to-Manpower ratio for Grenadiers), but not be possible on the field (so no "tactical merge" to win an engagement).
Pip
21 Mar 2021, 16:38 PM
#35
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Mar 2021, 12:41 PMOlekman


That's impossible. There's no way to artificially block reinforcement, and the only way you can modify a squad's loadout is by adding more entities to it - you cannot remove anything from it.



I haven't tried making a "building squad" consisting of building entity and infantry entities, which could merge with other squads, but I bet it would have a wacky outcome. Plus, it sounds like just adding Merge ability to Ostruppen, but making them unable to move out of HQ sector or making their off-brand Merge only work in HQ sector...

Having typed that out, perhaps giving Ostruppen Merge ability that can only work in HQ sectors wouldn't a bad way of reworking Relief Infantry. It would be roughly as cost efficient as Conscript Merge (about 1.21 Health-to-Manpower ratio for Grenadiers), but not be possible on the field (so no "tactical merge" to win an engagement).


I feel like a 1.25 RA model being merged into Grenadiers would be pretty godawful, even if it is much cheaper.
21 Mar 2021, 17:24 PM
#36
avatar of Olekman
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Posts: 208

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Mar 2021, 16:38 PMPip


I feel like a 1.25 RA model being merged into Grenadiers would be pretty godawful, even if it is much cheaper.


You get over 70% received accuracy of a Grenadier model for 60% of the normal price and in almost half the time. Plus, if they are being shot by explosive weapons (so pretty much any tank gun) they are practically on par, as received accuracy has much smaller effect on AoE weapons. Granted, they would be more prone to getting forced off the field or wiped, but that's "attention tax" you pay for cost efficiency.
21 Mar 2021, 17:50 PM
#37
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 374 | Subs: 1



Wehrmacht was the name of the combined German armed forces, the Heer (army), Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine. Ostheer means Eastern Army and is a very accurate name. According to Gordon A. Harrison 2002 (Cross-Channel Attack), by 1942 the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (OKW) was in command of the West Front Armies while Oberkommando des Heeres (OKH) was in command of the three (or four since south was split in A and B) army groups on the Soviet front.


This post has achieved victory.

Just a fun fact right there.
Pip
21 Mar 2021, 18:02 PM
#38
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Mar 2021, 17:24 PMOlekman


You get over 70% received accuracy of a Grenadier model for 60% of the normal price and in almost half the time. Plus, if they are being shot by explosive weapons (so pretty much any tank gun) they are practically on par, as received accuracy has much smaller effect on AoE weapons. Granted, they would be more prone to getting forced off the field or wiped, but that's "attention tax" you pay for cost efficiency.


True, and I suppose Grens are ideally used at max range (When they're following their LMG upgrade path). I guess the issue is, as you say, them being very susceptible to being forced off the field. Four-man squads with substandard survivability can't afford to hang around till the last model. Osttruppen and Cons get around it by their squads being 50% larger. I don't know if you're really benefiting all that much in the long term, unless the squads you're rushing back onto the field are doing little but capturing territory (Or are team weapon crews).

It also may as well not even be an option for Panzergrenadiers, they ABSOLUTELY can't afford to have Osttruppen models in their squad, even if they are very cheap.

To be honest, I think for Ostheer the ability might be better/more fitting if you just got Gren models (or 1.0/0.95RA Ostruppen models) for a smaller (or no) "discount". The main benefit being that you can get your squads back onto the field faster through merging with the "replacements" squad, rather than being able to really save MP. In effect you're just "paying forward" for reinforcements.

"Cheap models into 'expensive' squad" works better for Soviet, it's already a factional trait, and their larger squad sizes make the individually weaker members less impactful. (Merging into Shocks is still an awful idea though)

21 Mar 2021, 18:21 PM
#39
avatar of Olekman
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Posts: 208

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Mar 2021, 18:02 PMPip


True, and I suppose Grens are ideally used at max range (When they're following their LMG upgrade path). I guess the issue is, as you say, them being very susceptible to being forced off the field. Four-man squads with substandard survivability can't afford to hang around till the last model. Osttruppen and Cons get around it by their squads being 50% larger. I don't know if you're really benefiting all that much in the long term, unless the squads you're rushing back onto the field are doing little but capturing territory (Or are team weapon crews).

It also may as well not even be an option for Panzergrenadiers, they ABSOLUTELY can't afford to have Osttruppen models in their squad, even if they are very cheap.

To be honest, I think for Ostheer the ability might be better/more fitting if you just got Gren models (or 1.0/0.95RA Ostruppen models) for a smaller (or no) "discount". The main benefit being that you can get your squads back onto the field faster through merging with the "replacements" squad, rather than being able to really save MP. In effect you're just "paying forward" for reinforcements.

"Cheap models into 'expensive' squad" works better for Soviet, it's already a factional trait, and their larger squad sizes make the individually weaker members less impactful. (Merging into Shocks is still an awful idea though)



Yes, hypothetical merging into Panzergrenadiers or Assault Grenadiers wouldn't be recommended as they require to close-in to the enemy to be effective, likely dropping models in the process. However, I believe that getting over 20% Health on the field per Manpower spent AND getting it to the field in almost half the time would definitely be worth it, just not in every situation.

Also, funny thing - just yesterday I finished a short write-up on Conscript's merge, analysing how cost efficient it is for different squads and what are optimal ways of using it. In general I'm surprised that merge isn't used more often in both low and higher ranks, but then again - I'm no pro.
Pip
21 Mar 2021, 18:37 PM
#40
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Mar 2021, 18:21 PMOlekman


Yes, hypothetical merging into Panzergrenadiers or Assault Grenadiers wouldn't be recommended as they require to close-in to the enemy to be effective, likely dropping models in the process. However, I believe that getting over 20% Health on the field per Manpower spent AND getting it to the field in almost half the time would definitely be worth it, just not in every situation.


Perhaps it depends on playstyle, I really can't see myself wanting to merge with Osttruppen in 90% of cases with Grenadiers, and in 100% of cases when talking about Pgrens or Assgrens.

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Mar 2021, 18:21 PMOlekman

Also, funny thing - just yesterday I finished a short write-up on Conscript's merge, analysing how cost efficient it is for different squads and what are optimal ways of using it. In general I'm surprised that merge isn't used more often in both low and higher ranks, but then again - I'm no pro.


I feel the same way, really. I make extensive use of Merge when playing Soviets; Cons -> team weapons, Cons -> Other Cons, Cons -> Penals, Cons -> Guards, are all fantastic value, especially when your Con squad has Mobilise.

The reduction in RA is genuinely rather minimal (9% for Con -> Penal, and something like 12-13% for Con -> Guard), and its further boosted in usability by the fact you can do it instantly on the field. Perhaps it's a "micro tax" concern that keeps people from making more heavy use of it?
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