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russian armor

Two Forgotten and bad OST abilities

17 Mar 2021, 01:14 AM
#21
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1735

i hope to see cp4 comes out 1.5min earlier, vet up 25% faster. at every vet levels, +10% aura range, maxing at +30% aura range. or have a vet ability to toggle/immobile +30% aura.

somewhat along these lines. so late game cp4 is more defensive like 222 or t70.

no need big rework but keep the flavor
17 Mar 2021, 01:25 AM
#22
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356

It'd be nice to see a few early 'sighting' rounds on the mortar barrage that deal maybe 10-20% of health's worth of guaranteed damage, but then again it'd be nice to see this for most arty strikes.

I've been meaning to do a long thread on muntions economy, and the all or nothing nature of arty strikes really messes with their 'fun' level IMO. While counterplay is definitely a necessary part of the game, I don't think that such expensive abilities should have the option to be 100% dodged.

I think all but the super heavy artillery strikes like railway should have some level of guaranteed damage like skill planes in order to help disperse mid and late game armies, and reward doctrine choice.
17 Mar 2021, 06:10 AM
#23
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

LAB is fine the way it is. A cheap and cost effective way to dislocate enemy support weapons. Especially good to use in conjunction with an armor push to scatter enemy ATGs.

Command P4 will be addressed in the upcoming patch.

What do you guys have in mind for command p4. maybe an pintle mg???
17 Mar 2021, 13:55 PM
#24
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 305

If CP4 came with armour skirts I think that would be a good addition
17 Mar 2021, 14:05 PM
#25
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Cp4 is plagued by the same problem that has plagued officer units in the past. It's a powerful force multiplier at the cost of any singular value from the unit itself. I truly hope that it follows suit from the other officers and becomes a unit that is worthwhile AND a command unit.

Buff the main gun-its trash. Making it like the stub dick stug in terms of output makes it a formidable early AI unit, adjust rof to keep it balanced if needed.
Scrap the perma- Aura and give it dynamic active abilities: a strafe or smoke shell. Give it abilities that increase moving accuracy and received accuracy of nearby units or specific units.
Perhaps shared vet, if required.

The bottom line is make the UNIT good and the command aspect a bonus that scales with the player, like the arty officer and the Sturm officers and the commisar does now.
17 Mar 2021, 14:10 PM
#26
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 309

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Mar 2021, 13:55 PMLewka
If CP4 came with armour skirts I think that would be a good addition

+1
Armour skirts would be a good add.
Also a Scout Plane ability, like the one on the new Infrared HT.
17 Mar 2021, 14:20 PM
#27
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2776 | Subs: 2


CP4 and OST P4 AI capabilities are almost identical. What the CP4 does not have is AT, that's what is being used to "pay" for the aura.


Edit:
Overall, I don't think the CP4 is that bad of a unit at the moment. It is just sometimes very odd to use. If you have 50 POP invested into infantry (which is low-normal) and invest into a CP4, you have about 38 POP to play with (usually slightly less).
I can't really speak of 1v1, but in team games you need to subtract an additional Panzerwerfer which brings you down to 26 POP at most. So you can get either a Panther and more infantry, or 2 P4s. I personally am usually not sure if I really want this unit when the only benefit is that two other units on the field survive a little better. Because you pay with quite a bit of micro and lose a lot of punch compared to a normal P4. I usually tend to play the way I am most familiar with and get a normal P4 instead (or invest 2-6 POP more into a T4 unit).
17 Mar 2021, 15:42 PM
#28
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1841 | Subs: 1

LAB is fine.
CPIV is getting reworked


As far as OH abilities goes:

Units arriving in bundle are not generally good so i would just remove the Gren/PG from the 250HT.
MAYBE the Gren version makes a little more sense in the Assault Gren commander.

Relief infantry.

Osstruppen reserves where always "eh" even in Mobile defense meta.

Not sure how shitty is the Stuka flame bomb barrage


I do hope they don't give Mechanized Assault the straight up 250 from Infantry though... I feel like the clown car cheese with early Ass Grens would just be toxic. +1 To Relief Infantry and Stuka Flame Run getting fixed. I would also suggest reworking the medical crate drop - maybe reduce the cost and have it drop one crate. Dropping 3 crates is too hard to use near the frontline because you rarely use them fast enough to not run risk of them getting stolen and dropping them at base is pointless when it's much more efficient to build a healing bunker. Med kits are also omni-present in OST and dirt cheap now... so you really need to work the buff angle to make the ability usefull.
17 Mar 2021, 15:52 PM
#29
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1896


CP4 and OST P4 AI capabilities are almost identical. What the CP4 does not have is AT, that's what is being used to "pay" for the aura.


Edit:
Overall, I don't think the CP4 is that bad of a unit at the moment. It is just sometimes very odd to use. If you have 50 POP invested into infantry (which is low-normal) and invest into a CP4, you have about 38 POP to play with (usually slightly less).
I can't really speak of 1v1, but in team games you need to subtract an additional Panzerwerfer which brings you down to 26 POP at most. So you can get either a Panther and more infantry, or 2 P4s. I personally am usually not sure if I really want this unit when the only benefit is that two other units on the field survive a little better. Because you pay with quite a bit of micro and lose a lot of punch compared to a normal P4. I usually tend to play the way I am most familiar with and get a normal P4 instead (or invest 2-6 POP more into a T4 unit).


This is the problem with it for me. It doesn't add enough survivability to anything to justify not being able to bring in a second Panther. It costs every as much as a regular P4 with roughly the same AI and much worse AT. Give it recon and mark target then I'd be happy with it, at least until somebody discovers there is a second Elefant doctrine and starts asking for nerfs again....
17 Mar 2021, 16:26 PM
#30
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



I do hope they don't give Mechanized Assault the straight up 250 from Infantry though... I feel like the clown car cheese with early Ass Grens would just be toxic. +1 To Relief Infantry and Stuka Flame Run getting fixed. I would also suggest reworking the medical crate drop - maybe reduce the cost and have it drop one crate. Dropping 3 crates is too hard to use near the frontline because you rarely use them fast enough to not run risk of them getting stolen and dropping them at base is pointless when it's much more efficient to build a healing bunker. Med kits are also omni-present in OST and dirt cheap now... so you really need to work the buff angle to make the ability usefull.


That's the reason that i think swapping the PG for a Gren would make more sense for the Assault Gren commander and you can usually skip T1.

I don't have the timings in my head, but i think the Pio flamer is still a better option regardless of having AssG.
17 Mar 2021, 20:10 PM
#31
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279


CP4 and OST P4 AI capabilities are almost identical. What the CP4 does not have is AT, that's what is being used to "pay" for the aura.


Edit:
Overall, I don't think the CP4 is that bad of a unit at the moment. It is just sometimes very odd to use. If you have 50 POP invested into infantry (which is low-normal) and invest into a CP4, you have about 38 POP to play with (usually slightly less).
I can't really speak of 1v1, but in team games you need to subtract an additional Panzerwerfer which brings you down to 26 POP at most. So you can get either a Panther and more infantry, or 2 P4s. I personally am usually not sure if I really want this unit when the only benefit is that two other units on the field survive a little better. Because you pay with quite a bit of micro and lose a lot of punch compared to a normal P4. I usually tend to play the way I am most familiar with and get a normal P4 instead (or invest 2-6 POP more into a T4 unit).

That's why I suggest going all in and making its gun good at AI instead of average. Make it worthwhile and complement the other units in the roster instead of compete with them poorly.
Maybe give it munitions ability that is HEAT shells or something that gives it a wee bit more AT bite, at a cost if needed.
Pip
17 Mar 2021, 21:04 PM
#32
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580


Command P4 will be addressed in the upcoming patch.


I'm interested in seeing what changes you guys have in store for the thing. I know exactly what I'd like to happen with it, but I'm expecting mostly number tweaks.

Can we expect to see any preliminary patchnotes in the nearish future, or is there still a lot of iteration/design work to do before you guys are even closed to finished with the Commander Patch? I always love reading through the notes.



That's the reason that i think swapping the PG for a Gren would make more sense for the Assault Gren commander and you can usually skip T1.

I don't have the timings in my head, but i think the Pio flamer is still a better option regardless of having AssG.


Ehhhh, I'd still really rather they just did away with "bundle" abilities like that. It's terribly limiting to force you to receive an unit you simply do not want in order to get one that you do. The fact they gave USF Transfer Orders last patch leads me to believe the Balans Teem is in agreement, and we might see these poorly designed abilities be reworked.
17 Mar 2021, 22:12 PM
#33
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Mar 2021, 21:04 PMPip


I'm interested in seeing what changes you guys have in store for the thing. I know exactly what I'd like to happen with it, but I'm expecting mostly number tweaks.

Can we expect to see any preliminary patchnotes in the nearish future, or is there still a lot of iteration/design work to do before you guys are even closed to finished with the Commander Patch? I always love reading through the notes.



Ehhhh, I'd still really rather they just did away with "bundle" abilities like that. It's terribly limiting to force you to receive an unit you simply do not want in order to get one that you do. The fact they gave USF Transfer Orders last patch leads me to believe the Balans Teem is in agreement, and we might see these poorly designed abilities be reworked.


Assault Guards HT, 250 Gren and PG should be changed but in case that's not possible i think that swapping the Gren one with the PG one makes sense.
18 Mar 2021, 00:33 AM
#34
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Assault Guards HT, 250 Gren and PG should be changed but in case that's not possible i think that swapping the Gren one with the PG one makes sense.

Funny enough, I think they should be the gren one, not the pgren one and I'll tell ya why:
Pgrens are inevitable.
Grens are skipable.
Just like the guard halftrack is meh because you can just build the HT, you can build pgrens even if you decided to skip all buildings but t4
the grens also iirc come with a lmg, so the lost manpower is gained by munitions (in the pgren v gren HTs)

One might also consider 5 man grens, or storm troopers, but pgrens is the last thing I'd like to see in the HT, because like I said, if you want em... Just build em
18 Mar 2021, 01:50 AM
#35
avatar of Reverb

Posts: 195

Give Command PIV HEAT shell ability so it has a anti-tank timed window, adjust to taste.
18 Mar 2021, 11:22 AM
#36
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2776 | Subs: 2

For the CP4 I'd say either reduce the POP cost (maybe 10?) or - my favourite - add utility.

Like an actual commander that increases sight range (not sure if it can be done model wise), some focus fire ability vs infantry or mark vehicle vs tanks (will probably need to be removed form the Elefant commander then), recon or smoke shell or something similar. Even some "inspire" ability or so would fit nicely.

Only one of these obviously, not the whole set
18 Mar 2021, 14:58 PM
#37
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 309

For the CP4 I'd say either reduce the POP cost (maybe 10?) or - my favourite - add utility.

Like an actual commander that increases sight range (not sure if it can be done model wise), some focus fire ability vs infantry or mark vehicle vs tanks (will probably need to be removed form the Elefant commander then), recon or smoke shell or something similar. Even some "inspire" ability or so would fit nicely.

Only one of these obviously, not the whole set

+1

But Comm P4 needs more than one buff (or new ability) to be useful.
Pip
18 Mar 2021, 15:11 PM
#38
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580


Funny enough, I think they should be the gren one, not the pgren one and I'll tell ya why:
Pgrens are inevitable.
Grens are skipable.
Just like the guard halftrack is meh because you can just build the HT, you can build pgrens even if you decided to skip all buildings but t4
the grens also iirc come with a lmg, so the lost manpower is gained by munitions (in the pgren v gren HTs)

One might also consider 5 man grens, or storm troopers, but pgrens is the last thing I'd like to see in the HT, because like I said, if you want em... Just build em


The issue is more that you

A: Don't always want Grens or Pgrens in certain builds, so even the initial HT could well give you an unit you simply do not need/want when all you are really desiring is the HT.

B: If you want to rebuild the HT for any reason you are /forced/ into having an extra infantry squad alongside.

All nondoc units come singly, not paired with some other unit, for precisely these reasons. The only nondoctrinal equivalent to this is the USF officers granted from tech, and the Balance team realised that this limits people, and so gave USF the Transfer Orders ability.

Honestly, another solution would be to just give /every/ faction the ability to force their own units to leave the field, then you could keep the bundles, but allow a player to tell the extra squad to fuck off. I'm not 100% on why this isnt already available to all factions.
18 Mar 2021, 20:31 PM
#39
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Mar 2021, 15:11 PMPip


The issue is more that you

A: Don't always want Grens or Pgrens in certain builds, so even the initial HT could well give you an unit you simply do not need/want when all you are really desiring is the HT.

B: If you want to rebuild the HT for any reason you are /forced/ into having an extra infantry squad alongside.

All nondoc units come singly, not paired with some other unit, for precisely these reasons. The only nondoctrinal equivalent to this is the USF officers granted from tech, and the Balance team realised that this limits people, and so gave USF the Transfer Orders ability.

Honestly, another solution would be to just give /every/ faction the ability to force their own units to leave the field, then you could keep the bundles, but allow a player to tell the extra squad to fuck off. I'm not 100% on why this isnt already available to all factions.


I agree with you on all accounts, I'm just saying that if it IS to remain coupled, both should be grens not pgrens due to accessibility.
Grens are the only lads that can be skipped so there COULD be value found there in fast teching pgrens and using the HT with grens to afford you a snare a little later.
Its possible to not have access to grens (though it's not hard to get em ileven if you did skip T1) but it's impossible to not have access to pgrens is all I'm sayin.
Pip
18 Mar 2021, 20:39 PM
#40
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580



I agree with you on all accounts, I'm just saying that if it IS to remain coupled, both should be grens not pgrens due to accessibility.
Grens are the only lads that can be skipped so there COULD be value found there in fast teching pgrens and using the HT with grens to afford you a snare a little later.
Its possible to not have access to grens (though it's not hard to get em ileven if you did skip T1) but it's impossible to not have access to pgrens is all I'm sayin.


Ah, fair enough. I can see your point, though I do hope they just outright change all these abilities to not be bundles. Even if they did change both to Grens (Which I would agree to be an "improvement"), the benefit in a tiny minority of cases is still far outweighed by the negatives in the vast majority of cases.

Don't you need Tier 1 up to have access to the Grenadier's Panzerfaust, by the way? If so, you're still going to have to build tier 1 to be able to really use the Grens you get from the HT callins, so it's not even a huge benefit in THAT scenario.
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