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USF Commander - Recon Company rework

13 Mar 2021, 04:38 AM
#1
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

So I want to make a suggestion for a Company that I really would like to see getting in action more often.


Recon Company

(0) Raid Tactics - ability makes no sense since this commander hasn't so much light vehicles in comparison to other USF companies and USF generally just could disembark crew to take point if really needed, a poorly designed ability for this faction

-> swap with: (4) Howitzer drop (for manpower and munition)

(0) IR Pathfinders - ability is fine

(4) Airdropped Combat Group - since Howitzer drop has its own drop now, just delete it

-> swap with: (3) Reserve Paratrooper drop (for manpower) - without howitzer you could drop them more offensive and in the end you won't need so much howitzers as you want to field Reserve Paratroopers (sometimes you won't even need a single one)

(7) M83 cluster mines - ability is fine

(4) M8 Greyhound - keep but needs adjusting


Greyhound

Lets talk a little about the Greyhound which is the one real unique unit of this company.

Timing: First I would delete CP requirement and place it in HQ and bind it to having build both officers or one officer plus appropiate tech. That way it would come pretty at the same time as Stuart / AA HT.

Its problem is that these two nondoctrinal choices perform better, with the exception of sight.
If you want same AT perfomance but better AI performance take AA HT (+ strong AA defence), if you want same AI performance but better AT performance take Stuart (+ has better survivability). If you want to have just the recon part take the M20 which costs a third of the fuel a Greyhound costs, grants the same sight and levels super quick to Vet1 to get +10 sight (+ lays heavy vehicle mines). The greyhound really struggles to be somehow special at all.

50-cal (purchased for 60 MU): It can boost its AI performance for 60mun at least getting better at AI than Stuart, but you have to invest for that and you still suck at AT and have less survivability (you loose vs a Luchs for example).

Canister shot (40 MU per use): Was overpowered versus blobs so it got nerfed harsh. Has the additional problem that its range is so short that you will get either hit by infantry AT weapons or by snares, so you have to choose your targets very carefully.

Recon proposals: This unit needs something. First of all you can strengthen its recon part (hey its Recon company after all) and give it back some of the deleted huge +30% sight bonus it got at Vet3 once upon a time as it was a real recon vehicle. Either give it a +10 sight toggle Recon mode at Vet1 which disables weapons and weapon abilities or give it +10 sight at Vet3. If you want to rework sight overall I'm all in for timed sight abilities as I wrote at another thread, but that is optional.

Combat proposals: Buff its combat performance somehow slightly. There are different options I could imagine. Here are some thoughts about what could be done to put it in one or another direction without turning it into something op:

- give it the smoke pots it had in reality for better survivability
- add some range to canister shot and give it yellow suppression (don't kill the blob, but suppress it)
- buff either damage or reload of main gun slightly so that the matchup Luchs/Greyhound gets more about even
- give it a timed suppression ability for munition after 50-Cal upgrade instead of quirky Canister shot
13 Mar 2021, 19:01 PM
#2
avatar of IntoTheRain

Posts: 179

Greyhound needs a rework.

CP4 means it shows up later than a Stuart. Then it requires a further investment of 60 munitions. Its main gun is lousy, and the canister shot is an overpriced, underpowered grenade.
Pip
13 Mar 2021, 19:16 PM
#3
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

I like your changes, they're generally pretty obvious improvements, particularly in the case of splitting the Pack Howitzer and Paratrooper abilities.

If you're removing Raid Tactics, instead of replacing that ability with the Pack Howtizer (This is arguably a nerf to the commander, outright losing an ability) I would instead bundle the Pathfinder and Greyhound abilities, and turn them both into CP0 buildables rather than callins (Though delay the Greyhound until a certain tech level is reached), and then provide Recon with some other ability to /actually/ replace Raid Tactics.

Incidentally, perhaps the Greyhound could be reworked into an AEC/Puma type vehicle, rather than what it currently exists as? Such a vehicle doesn't currently exist in the USF arsenal (Except arguably through some of the Stuart's abilities). Alternatively, it could be reworked into more of a "supportive" vehicle as follows:

The Greyhound could provide the benefits of the Pathfinder beacons, but on a mobile platform, allowing Paras to reinforce around the vehicle as though it was a halftrack (Though they'd still paradrop in). Perhaps it could be allowed to "Dig in" like the 250 HT to provide paths/paras with a mobile strongpoint?

I still despise the M83 cluster mines, but I won't advocate for changes there.




(How do "Reserve" Paratroopers differ from "Regular" Paratroopers, anyway? I know the Recon and Airborne Paras have different weapon upgrades, but you make it sound like there's some other difference between the squads)
13 Mar 2021, 20:35 PM
#4
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3475 | Subs: 1

The problem with this doctrine is its lack of late game abilities but I can't see anything that as late game ability feet the recon theme. The packhowi has been added when USF have been reworked and made the Atgun more available. Now that the pakhowi has been nerfed its more of a burden than a strategic ability.

My proposal>

Replace raid tactic with the Jeep at CP0. The jeep is an excellent reco unit and this would give USF a second doctrine with it.

Pathfinder CP0

Airdrop Combat group CP3. Replace the Packhowi by a HMG. With the Jeep at CP0 acting like an early M20 and the M8 later, Captain tier would be the go to tech by default.

M8 Greyhound. Repurpose its main gun as an AT unit and the .50 caliber upgrade to be the AI source of fire.

Cluster bomb drop CP8

13 Mar 2021, 20:45 PM
#5
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2021, 19:16 PMPip
I like your changes, they're generally pretty obvious improvements, particularly in the case of splitting the Pack Howitzer and Paratrooper abilities.

If you're removing Raid Tactics, instead of replacing that ability with the Pack Howtizer (This is arguably a nerf to the commander, outright losing an ability) I would instead bundle the Pathfinder and Greyhound abilities, and turn them both into CP0 buildables rather than callins (Though delay the Greyhound until a certain tech level is reached), and then provide Recon with some other ability to /actually/ replace Raid Tactics.

Incidentally, perhaps the Greyhound could be reworked into an AEC/Puma type vehicle, rather than what it currently exists as? Such a vehicle doesn't currently exist in the USF arsenal (Except arguably through some of the Stuart's abilities). Alternatively, it could be reworked into more of a "supportive" vehicle as follows:

The Greyhound could provide the benefits of the Pathfinder beacons, but on a mobile platform, allowing Paras to reinforce around the vehicle as though it was a halftrack (Though they'd still paradrop in). Perhaps it could be allowed to "Dig in" like the 250 HT to provide paths/paras with a mobile strongpoint?


Yeah, that are all options to rework it somehow.
- binding to tech is mandatory
- buffing M8 Greyhound recon slightly (better than M20) should be the case too
- then you a have a lot of options for a combat or versatility buff, you named a few that could work


jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2021, 19:16 PMPip

I still despise the M83 cluster mines, but I won't advocate for changes there.


If you time it right at a forward retreat point for example, it can be quite devastating. It is all about using it at the right moment. Calling it down on a blob will do nothing if your opponent isn't afk.
You have to wait for the right opportunity.

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2021, 19:16 PMPip

(How do "Reserve" Paratroopers differ from "Regular" Paratroopers, anyway? I know the Recon and Airborne Paras have different weapon upgrades, but you make it sound like there's some other difference between the squads)


As you seem to know both can be upgraded with M1919A6 turning them into the same unit with the additional suppression ability. Normal Falls can be upgraded with 4 Thompsons or at racks with 2 Bars or 2 Super Bazookas. So since Reserve Paras can be upgraded with Bars and Super Bazookas at racks too you may ask whats about this Super Bazooka Upgrade at Reserve Paras? Seems they just have one weapon option less than normal Paras. The answer is that they get additional abilities when equipped with Super Bazookas. They gain the ability to lay the standard 30 Mu mines which USF only has at doctrinal Rifleman Field Defences and they get Camouflage + hold fire when in cover. So you could lay traps with them actually. This would be even more interesting if you could drop them behind enemy lines without giving away a howitzer to the opponent (since the bazooka upgrade works outside of own territory).
13 Mar 2021, 20:59 PM
#6
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2021, 20:35 PMEsxile

Replace raid tactic with the Jeep at CP0. The jeep is an excellent reco unit and this would give USF a second doctrine with it.

Yeah that would be an interesting ability swap with more recon and map control (since jeep can take territory).

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2021, 20:35 PMEsxile

Airdrop Combat group CP3. Replace the Packhowi by a HMG.

Having a Reserve Para drop without support weapon would be very interesting because of that Super Bazooka + mine + camouflage combination. Some harassing behind enemy lines could be fun. I'm not keen on clinging to a combined drop.

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2021, 20:35 PMEsxile

M8 Greyhound. Repurpose its main gun as an AT unit and the .50 caliber upgrade to be the AI source of fire.

The main difficulty is to set it apart from Stuart then.
Pip
13 Mar 2021, 21:07 PM
#7
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580



If you time it right at a forward retreat point for example, it can be quite devastating. It is all about using it at the right moment. Calling it down on a blob will do nothing if your opponent isn't afk.
You have to wait for the right opportunity.


What I mean to say is that i despise them when I'm playing Axis. It's extremely difficult (if not impossible, in some cases) to escape from the AOE with team weapons, and as you say; if you call it on an FRP with good timing, you can obliterate a LOT of units.

Its a good ability, I just don't like being on the receiving end.
13 Mar 2021, 21:15 PM
#8
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2021, 21:07 PMPip


What I mean to say is that i despise them when I'm playing Axis. It's extremely difficult (if not impossible, in some cases) to escape from the AOE with team weapons, and as you say; if you call it on an FRP with good timing, you can obliterate a LOT of units.

Its a good ability, I just don't like being on the receiving end.


Okay, i guess I got you wrong. ;)

If you see what you are up against you have to move your team weapons instantly once the red smoke drops. that way you should escape. As the ability was released the mines hit you a lot faster after red smoke was dropped, that was really op. Now you should be fine in most cases, just don't build a forward retreat point and hit mass retreat then.
13 Mar 2021, 21:23 PM
#9
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 716

M8 maybe just be 0cp passive and build in HQ?Tech request same as major
13 Mar 2021, 21:28 PM
#10
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

M8 maybe just be 0cp passive and build in HQ?Tech request same as major


Major is way to late, to have any combat value. It is a light vehicle after all that gets beaten by a Luchs atm. It needs to be adjusted in performance and put in the same timing as Stuart and AA HT. So put it in HQ and unlock it by double officer or officer + appropiate officer tech.

Edit: Sorry man, after reading again I do think I got you wrong. Tech request same as Major seems to be the exact same thing I proposed here XD
13 Mar 2021, 22:26 PM
#11
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 716



Major is way to late, to have any combat value. It is a light vehicle after all that gets beaten by a Luchs atm. It needs to be adjusted in performance and put in the same timing as Stuart and AA HT. So put it in HQ and unlock it by double officer or officer + appropiate officer tech.

Edit: Sorry man, after reading again I do think I got you wrong. Tech request same as Major seems to be the exact same thing I proposed here XD


Yeah,Major tech request LT+CP or T2/T3 upgrade,my English too bad,thanks for reading
14 Mar 2021, 14:18 PM
#12
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

Cant' we have the Greyhound release from the HQ with same requirements as the major.
14 Mar 2021, 16:49 PM
#13
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 583

How about making Raid tactics a combat focused ability that improves USF light vehicles in different ways.
For example the AAHT gets 5 extra range, Stuart/Greyhound get improved reload, M20 gets suppression.
14 Mar 2021, 20:24 PM
#14
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

How about making Raid tactics a combat focused ability that improves USF light vehicles in different ways.
For example the AAHT gets 5 extra range, Stuart/Greyhound get improved reload, M20 gets suppression.


Its is a funny idea indeed but I do think people will get confused by the different combat buffs. What the f..k was that again? What I do get for Greyhound? Speed? Reload? Accuracy? ;-)

If you would name it Recon Tactics for example that gives a global +10 sight to all infantry and light vehicles for about 45 seconds (stated in the description) it would be crystal clear what it does.
15 Mar 2021, 06:22 AM
#15
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

Since the Greyhound and the Stuart have the same main gun, why not give the Greyhound Stuart AT performance without the abilities?
15 Mar 2021, 06:34 AM
#16
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1217

One can try turn reverse para in to an infiltration unit, which usf currently dont have. 5 man with carbine and two upgrade of thompson or elite zook. May be let them spawn as 4 man and only the thompson upgrade provide additional models.

15 Mar 2021, 06:35 AM
#17
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

One can try turn reverse para in to an infiltration unit, which usf currently dont have. 5 man with carbine and two upgrade of thompson or elite zook. May be let them spawn as 4 man and only the thompson upgrade provide additional models.

A Thompson infiltration unit might be cancerous since they would melt infantry the fastest out of all infiltration units, wouldn't they? At least, with first strike they would definitely melt faster than Commandos, Storms, and Falls.
15 Mar 2021, 07:36 AM
#18
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1217

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Mar 2021, 06:35 AMSpoof

A Thompson infiltration unit might be cancerous since they would melt infantry the fastest out of all infiltration units, wouldn't they? At least, with first strike they would definitely melt faster than Commandos, Storms, and Falls.


They will spawn as 4 or 5 man and just with carbine. Thompson upgrade may provide just three guns and increase squad size to 5 or 6. They will have camo as now but no fist strike.
15 Mar 2021, 07:44 AM
#19
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1217

Replace raid with wc51 is nice. As is, raid is very underwhelming compare to ukf versions and usf vehicle can already cap with crews on top of that, making the ability very redundant.

For the Greyhound, turning it into At Oriented unit like Aec can make the cut. May be improve it mobility and give it a smoke screen, slap aec treat shot on top and be done. Then it can be built from hq at the same requirement as Stuart/aaht.
15 Mar 2021, 14:52 PM
#20
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281

im not sure why a already very strong commander should get buffs? every single ability is either usefull, busted or has situational uses...

On top of that, wc51 should be erased from the game not implemented into more commanders
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