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[Winter Balance Update] OKW Feedback

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21 Dec 2020, 08:52 AM
#321
avatar of mongman

Posts: 27

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2020, 06:25 AMOlfin


I Inspired from your suggestion the following.

1- Battlegroup will include m34 and lelg available from the start, and ober after upgrade(maybe having additional side tech to enable Ober to upgrade there weapon, or lock the Ober weapon upgrades until T3 or T4 being built).
2 - Mechanized will include flak half truck and Infrared half truck from the start, and Panzer2 and Puma after upgrade.
3 - T4 will include Stuka from the start, and the P4, JP4 and Panzer after upgrade.

What is your thoughts?
I hope that balance team will take our suggestions in mind ,and make something useful from them.


not bad, the only dilemma I see tho would be the time required to research luchs and puma could mean they miss their window of opportunity to be useful
21 Dec 2020, 11:31 AM
#322
avatar of Olfin

Posts: 167

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2020, 08:52 AMmongman


not bad, the only dilemma I see tho would be the time required to research luchs and puma could mean they miss their window of opportunity to be useful

Yes but this can be controlled by reducing the upgrade time and the units build time.
21 Dec 2020, 19:53 PM
#323
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

Why does a single USF BAR do more damage than both Volks StGs combined at almost all ranges? At least, that seems to be the case when I look at the stats on https://coh2.serealia.ca/, although I could be wrong.
21 Dec 2020, 20:39 PM
#324
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

Price tag, dropability. The 33% loto... really sucks. How much are STGs? 60?

Also, its how non-doc USF competes with non-doc elite infantry. I believe MG34 Obers shread them.
21 Dec 2020, 20:46 PM
#325
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

Price tag, dropability. The 33% loto... really sucks. How much are STGs? 60?

Also, its how non-doc USF competes with non-doc elite infantry. I believe MG34 Obers shread them.

StGs are also 60. I can understand if USF needs them to compete with Obers, but such a design, where BAR Rifles are needed against Obers, but make Volks completely obsolete, is just dumb. At least make the StG upgrade not take up all slots so Volks can actually pick up BARs. Or, rework Volks veterancy bonuses.
21 Dec 2020, 20:46 PM
#326
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2020, 19:53 PMSpoof
Why does a single USF BAR do more damage than both Volks StGs combined at almost all ranges? At least, that seems to be the case when I look at the stats on https://coh2.serealia.ca/, although I could be wrong.

Because it requires investing manpower and fuel that does not contribute to the tech and can't be equipped at enemy territory, it can also drop, while STGs can't.
21 Dec 2020, 20:49 PM
#327
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2020, 20:46 PMKatitof

Because it requires investing manpower and fuel that does not contribute to the tech and can't be equipped at enemy territory, it can also drop, while STGs can't.

Even if StGs could drop, who would ever waste a weapon slot on them? I totally understand the part where the StG upgrade comes fast and can be upgraded out of territory. However, I don't think that BARs making Volks completely obsolete and forcing LMG Obers is a good design. I'm not calling for a big buff, either the StG upgrade doesn't take up both slots so Volks can pick up dropped weapons, or rework their veterancy bonuses a little.
21 Dec 2020, 22:10 PM
#328
avatar of Olfin

Posts: 167

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2020, 20:49 PMSpoof

Even if StGs could drop, who would ever waste a weapon slot on them? I totally understand the part where the StG upgrade comes fast and can be upgraded out of territory. However, I don't think that BARs making Volks completely obsolete and forcing LMG Obers is a good design. I'm not calling for a big buff, either the StG upgrade doesn't take up both slots so Volks can pick up dropped weapons, or rework their veterancy bonuses a little.


Agree, there veterancy bounces should be improved a little .
21 Dec 2020, 23:30 PM
#329
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 940

I'm not even sure how volks should be changed at this point, have resigned to trying to outskill my opponent long enough to get double Obers and meme their inf. That or some Feuersturm smoke centric build.

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2020, 20:49 PMSpoof

Even if StGs could drop, who would ever waste a weapon slot on them? I totally understand the part where the StG upgrade comes fast and can be upgraded out of territory. However, I don't think that BARs making Volks completely obsolete and forcing LMG Obers is a good design. I'm not calling for a big buff, either the StG upgrade doesn't take up both slots so Volks can pick up dropped weapons, or rework their veterancy bonuses a little.

Assuming one BAR inf -

Don't take this the wrong way but camp behind sandbags and other cover. If we're talking strictly rifle vs volks, being kicked out of cover by flame nades more than negates their firepower advantage as that cover remains denied for a fair while too. Even if you eat a nade in heavy cover their men are going to get shredded on approach too.

Obviously squad vs squad alone is pretty rare and combined arms will decide things big time. Like a certain Auf J shrugging off zooks....

As an aside, DevM recently uploaded a OKW vs UKF matchup, take a look at that for some pre-upgrade fight stuff.
22 Dec 2020, 07:21 AM
#330
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2020, 20:49 PMSpoof

Even if StGs could drop, who would ever waste a weapon slot on them? I totally understand the part where the StG upgrade comes fast and can be upgraded out of territory. However, I don't think that BARs making Volks completely obsolete and forcing LMG Obers is a good design. I'm not calling for a big buff, either the StG upgrade doesn't take up both slots so Volks can pick up dropped weapons, or rework their veterancy bonuses a little.


If Volks could already stand up to double BAR riflemen, how would USF be able to handle Obers on top of that?

I'm not in favor of the way USF/UKF are designed in terms of weapon upgrades, but as long as neither faction has elite non-doctrinal infantry available to them, their basic infantry kinda has to out-perform axis basic infantry when fully upgraded so they don't get rolled when axis elites hit the field.
22 Dec 2020, 09:08 AM
#331
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2020, 20:49 PMSpoof

Even if StGs could drop, who would ever waste a weapon slot on them? I totally understand the part where the StG upgrade comes fast and can be upgraded out of territory. However, I don't think that BARs making Volks completely obsolete and forcing LMG Obers is a good design. I'm not calling for a big buff, either the StG upgrade doesn't take up both slots so Volks can pick up dropped weapons, or rework their veterancy bonuses a little.

USF infantry scales with upgrades.
They do not have ubermenschen like OKW does.
Deal with it or switch to USF/UKF.
22 Dec 2020, 09:30 AM
#332
avatar of Olfin

Posts: 167



If Volks could already stand up to double BAR riflemen, how would USF be able to handle Obers on top of that?

I'm not in favor of the way USF/UKF are designed in terms of weapon upgrades, but as long as neither faction has elite non-doctrinal infantry available to them, their basic infantry kinda has to out-perform axis basic infantry when fully upgraded so they don't get rolled when axis elites hit the field.


still volks need some veterancy improvements , obers not always easy to bring to battle, if u don't lost your volks it will be wast of resources, at least volks vet 4/5 should be good enough to fight rifleman vet1/2 with bars for example (That doesn't mean they should be as strong as the riflemen but a little vet buffs is required, we are taking here about vet 4/5 volks not just volks).

Or the Ober should be more easier to bring or less punishing at least.
22 Dec 2020, 11:14 AM
#333
avatar of Goldenpunch

Posts: 124

Let's buff sturms for more bigger blobs in team games. And lets force okw to pay 120 muni for igniting a building.
22 Dec 2020, 15:31 PM
#334
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Volks need their vet looked at. It was gutted because of shreks and never look at again.

That said a looksy at how rifle racks work might be nice too. Something to slow their power jump would be a boon to both axis factions

I'd like to see them with only 1 slot until Vetted to make elite infantry and officers (both whom would retain the current weapon slots) more distinct as well as making it so the only hurdle to near elite infantry status isn't just munitions
22 Dec 2020, 17:59 PM
#335
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449


If Volks could already stand up to double BAR riflemen, how would USF be able to handle Obers on top of that?

I'm not. I'm asking for Volks to stand up to single BARs. One BAR still does more DPS than both StGs combined at most ranges. Combine that with better RA(?) for Riflemen models and the balance of engagements is in favor of the Rifles. Sure, weapon racks do take a while to come out but the powerspike associated with them is insane. Double BARS just makes Volks obsolete except for their Panzerfaust. I actually don't have much gripe with Brens because StGs outdps them at close range, which is good design.
22 Dec 2020, 20:17 PM
#336
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

V4 changes

OKW

Raketenwerfer
The Raketenwerfer is having its target size increased to match other anti-tank guns. This should have no impact when the gun is crewed, but will make abandoned Raketenwerfers easier to destroy.
- Gun target size from 10 to 20

Le.IG 18
In line with the mortar smoke changes, the Le.IG is having its reload reduced on its smoke barrage.
- Le.IG smoke reload from 2.3/3.6 to 0.55/1.85

Panzer II Luchs
The Luchs is being made into a proper detection vehicle to reinforce its role as an infantry hunter. Its penalties against heavy cover and garrisons are also being reduced to make the Luchs more effective at attacking infantry in defensive positions.
- Detection range from 15 to 25
- Damage modifier against heavy cover and garrisons from .25/0.3 to 0.5

Hetzer
The Hetzer is having its initial target size increased to make it easier to drive off in the mid-game thanks to its new timing. Previously, it was too difficult to hit for the amount of armour and health it had.
- Target size from 15 to 17
- Veterancy 1 now also provides 0.8824 Received accuracy, returning its target size back to 15.
22 Dec 2020, 20:20 PM
#337
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2020, 17:59 PMSpoof

I'm not. I'm asking for Volks to stand up to single BARs. One BAR still does more DPS than both StGs combined at most ranges. Combine that with better RA(?) for Riflemen models and the balance of engagements is in favor of the Rifles. Sure, weapon racks do take a while to come out but the powerspike associated with them is insane. Double BARS just makes Volks obsolete except for their Panzerfaust. I actually don't have much gripe with Brens because StGs outdps them at close range, which is good design.

Well, as was said, double bar rifles are supposed to be a thrifty alternative to elite infantry, which is fine, but the accessibility of double bar is not. Single bar rifles should beat stg volks more or less simply due to costs at play and because for some ungodly reason this is the age of good at all ranges upgrades which means the more expensive wins vs wins in certain scenarios.

If volks had mp40s then it could be possible for them to beat rifles up close as they trade long range dps but as long as both units are carrying similar costed no drawback weapons then the higher investment has it every time.

Counterplay and relative positioning are unfortunately a design of old now lost.
22 Dec 2020, 20:39 PM
#338
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 940

I mean.....it's not as if the rak crew was hard to kill except on retreat but okay sure. Consistency change with other AT guns \o\

Rest of the changes seem very reasonable and the size change should make the earlier flammpanzer a little less outrageous to deal with. Luchs changes fix a long standing issue with ppl just ignoring it in garrisons which was a strange thing to have. I'd compare it to the T-70's 0.25 garrison received dmg but that thing has a better aoe so probably evens out ish.
22 Dec 2020, 20:42 PM
#339
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

The size change with the 10% larger hit size on crew will decrease Racketen survivability (and recovery), classicly a major annoyance.

More smoke more reactively more better.

Looks good.
22 Dec 2020, 20:59 PM
#340
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 856 | Subs: 2

Changes to Luchs and Hetzer are very welcome. I like it a lot that you gradually nerf the Hetzer, thats the right thing to do.
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