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Will they address Panzergrens in the new patch?

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26 Nov 2020, 17:11 PM
#61
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1


...
cool, noone cares. Take your pettiness elsewhere and stay on topic.
...

Try to follow your own advice and stop making 10 post talking about grenadiers in thread about panzer grenadiers.
26 Nov 2020, 17:16 PM
#62
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 02:52 AMCODGUY
The unit arrives way too early, pretty much negates the idea that Allies have better "mainline" infantry. It should go back to the building with the AT gun.

I begrudgingly have to say that I agree with you on the fact they come too early.
26 Nov 2020, 17:17 PM
#63
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1600 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 17:06 PMVipper

Well this thread is about PG and not grenadiers, but what you are suggesting will simply lead to more power creep.

It is the allied infatry that need to adjusted and not the lmg grenadiers.


Any thread about Pgrens will invariably include discussion about LMG Grens.

It's powercreep yes. Ideally you'd tone down all Allied mainline infantry's endgame performance slightly and then also tone down most of Axis doctrinal infantry (everything except Volks and Grens pretty much). I doubt it's gonna happen, because buffing Volks and Grens to be on par with other infantry in the endgame is much easier. You'Il just have to get used to the faster pace instead of being stuck in pre-WFA mentality forever.
26 Nov 2020, 17:20 PM
#64
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



Any thread about Pgrens will invariably include discussion about LMG Grens.

It's powercreep yes. Ideally you'd tone down all Allied infantry's endgame performance slightly and then also tone down most of Axis doctrinal infantry (everything except Volks and Grens pretty much). I doubt it's gonna happen, because buffing Volks and Grens to be on par with other infantry in the endgame is much easier.

That is simply a Myth.

Every new change creates a ripple affect with unpredictable consequences. It far easier to roll back some of the buffs allied infantries have received over the years than to venture into uncharted areas and add another buff to grenadiers.
26 Nov 2020, 17:22 PM
#65
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 904 | Subs: 1


How is that relevant? Ostheer was designed with 0CP call in infantry (assgrens and osttruppen) to supplement their stock roster, as well as 5min (4 now thanks balance team) elite infantry. They're not as dependent on their stock mainlines as other factions because that's how they were designed and that's how it still is. Doesn't make Grens a bad unit, Ostheer was always designed to have options.


There is thin line here. All you are saying is true, they are not as dependent, but problem is that vanilla grens requare babysitting from other units. Rifles can freely push them, Tommies can freely poke them from range.

Where one need one unit, ostheer need two. Lets say cons vs Volks match up, even if cons would have to retreat after engaging volks at close range, volks would most likely have to be retreated aswell. Its a small but win. Both USF\UKF can engage unsupported grens, with minimal casulties.

As I was saying before, on paper and as a raw stats unit, grens are fine and good. But in reality they are put in such environment vs USF\UKF that playing with them is just painfull, considering you are in constant full disadvantage if you are not bringing some specific toys. They are not just weaker, they are almost completly useless, if not supported. Without LMG that is.

Also again, for a meatshield grens are too expensive to maintain aswell as to keep on the field (considering 4 models).
26 Nov 2020, 17:23 PM
#66
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

Penals’ comparison is Panzerfusiliers, not Panzergrenadiers.

In what way?????
26 Nov 2020, 17:30 PM
#67
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1600 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 17:20 PMVipper

That is simply a Myth.

Every new change creates a ripple affect with unpredictable consequences. It far easier to roll back some of the buffs allied infantries have received over the years than to venture into uncharted areas and add another buff to grenadiers.


Rolling back is a terrible idea, it's just endgame performance of double BAR Rifles, double Bren bolstered Sections and 7 men Cons that are the problem.

Unironically think all of the popular Allied mainlines could have 5% RA of their last veterancy buff removed and as compensation have their upgrades made cheaper. Afterwards you'd remove like 5-10% accuracy from the last veterancy buff of most Axis doctrinal infantry or something similar.

But not many would agree, so I'd be willing to vouch for STG Volk / LMG Gren buffs.
26 Nov 2020, 17:36 PM
#68
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Rifles can freely push them, Tommies can freely poke them from range.


So let's examine this.

Let's say 1v1 Ost vs USF, USF has 2 paths Ost plays vanilla.

early game: 3 rifles vs 1 mg42 3 grens
You stick the Grens in green cover positions and wait for them to spot incoming riflemen. Your job as Ostheer is to spot the incoming rifles and position the mg42 properly to suppress them and force critical retreats, aided by higher unit count early before 1st officer and the 42 sight pios.
USF has no support weapons early so the regular build is 3 riflemen. He has to take great engagements where the 1v1 or 2v1 with your grenadiers starts at the lowest range possible in order to deny the Ost player turning his MG to fire at him. This is the only thing USF can do early, concentrate a force on one area to overwhelm your unit(s) there with their superior infantry, all while playing around your mg42 which they also need to spot with their standard sight range to best avoid it. Game sense plays a huge role for both players, as does positioning.

LT: LT and .50cal hit the field, LT possibly getting a zook once 222 hits the field. .50cal is in support of Riflemen. Ostheer gets T2 and 222 hits the field. Next units to hit the field are Stuart and pak40. In this pre-stuart phase, you have a good 1-1.5 min window with the 222 (depending on mp trades and map control of course) to bleed vet 0 rifles and support your grenadiers, taking a sizeable amount of map control thanks to your earlier LV powerspike. As Ostheer you also get techless weapons upgrades at this point, either an LMG42 that bleeds riflemen excellent early game if you play positioning properly or 5man Grens which are zombies that don't bleed and can play much more aggressively than LMG Grens. USF then hits the Stuart powerspike, gets LV supremacy back, and Ostheer is confined to one half of the map mostly (you can still harass other side) so that the pak40 is always near the action to not let the much more mobile stuart freely bleed your 30mp reinforce infantry and kill your 222.

Cpt: Same scenario as before, except Cpt gets early BAR, AAHT hits the field faster, reducing your 222's window, followed by M1 ATG to further confine your 222 and Pack howitzer to force Ostheer to play less static to avoid bleed.

In my opinion if LMG Grens and unupgraded Grens could solo fight off riflemen like 5man Grens can, the Ost vs USF matchup would be a joke. Grens need to be weaker 1v1 than riflemen (at least in certain scenarios, later LMG Grens are better at range than any rifle M1919 + BAR or double BAR) in order for USF to be able to fight.



Where one need one unit, ostheer need two. Lets say cons vs Volks match up, even if cons would have to retreat after engaging volks at close range, volks would most likely have to be retreated aswell. Its a small but win. Both USF\UKF can engage unsupported grens, with minimal casulties.

As I was saying before, on paper and as a raw stats unit, grens are fine and good. But in reality they are put in such environment vs USF\UKF that playing with them is just painfull, considering you are in constant full disadvantage if you are not bringing some specific toys.


Well I don't see why you'd be playing with just Grenadiers. You have a T0 MG that's the best defensive MG in the game, you have a sniper that hits the field 1min into the game, you have a mortar in T1, you have an early light vehicle at 0 muni investment, accessible healing, excellent tech with no tech choices and everything available, a workhorse medium that hits the field in excellent timing, great doctrinal support. You have a much better roster than your opponents and are encouraged to use combined arms to win. In contrast, UKF lacks a lot of basic tools and has to compensate with strong infantry sections, fast UC and AEC. I don't like their design, but it's not an excuse to buff Grens so they can 1v1 sections. Same with riflemen.
26 Nov 2020, 17:39 PM
#69
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



Grens arent starting with LMG, if they were then ppl would have picked them always. This window of playing vannila grens vs USF\UKF, is the whole deal breaker for all this "lmg grens" mambo jambo.


Grens also don't have to wait 12-15 minutes before they are allowed LMGs and if you're not upgrading them when you can, you're doing it wrong.

And if you can't survive these 3 minutes before you can upgrade them, its most definitely not because of vanila grens vs rifles/tommies who you will ALWAYS outnumber.

The only time in CoH2 history when grens were self sufficient unit were times when they were batshit insane.

How does the 251 reduce the amount of MP a gren section lose while traiding?

Do you really want me to explain the benefit of having unit on field vs not having it on field and how map presence works and how ost was gives early game tools to win map presence?
If you want to win attrition war, you're supposed to build snipers.

I can't, but I can help you understanding the game in a way you will be able to do more than just trolling on this forum.

Perhaps that can go both ways?
We already had examples of high rank players being completely clueless and ending up as high rank because of extensive playing and above average micro instead of actual knowledge of units and their practical applications.

In what way?????

In "alternative mainline" way, difference being, penals excel in early game and are shit in mid and late and PFs are reverse.
26 Nov 2020, 17:48 PM
#70
avatar of VonManteuffel

Posts: 84

Just a reminder: PGs have no snare and are totally crap with shrek upgrade. Allies have best LV with high AI performance. So either fight it with vehicles, or infantry as Shreks are purchased.

Sorry guys, but if you have trouble vs. high cost elite infantry with no AT at 4-5 mins, then try Axis and deal with 5 min USF Flak HT, Soviet Quad and Brit AEC....
26 Nov 2020, 17:51 PM
#71
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 904 | Subs: 1


I don't like their design, but it's not an excuse to buff Grens so they can 1v1 sections. Same with riflemen.


I never was proposing that. The only single proposial I was making is to somehow look at ost early game power carriers like MG42. Because if some of MG42 power was taken and relocated towards vannila grens, to rufly keep everything at the same lvl of power as this combination providing right now.

This will be a nerf to cheesing with skipping T1 (because MG as itself will be weaker) and make vannila grens more plesent to use when they are not supported. They still will be weaker, but still should pose threat to more expensive inf, just like cons do to volks, if enemy engage them badly.

In other words, lets say if MG42 represents 90% of ost early game and Grens 10%, in my opinion it should be 60% for the MG42 and 40% for grens.
26 Nov 2020, 17:58 PM
#72
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

I am still for giving Grenadiers non-doc shock-grenade, so they can be used more aggressive and outplay blobs by abilies.

So HMG42 can be changed, and PnzGren arn't needed to stop doom-blobbs.
26 Nov 2020, 18:03 PM
#73
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



Rolling back is a terrible idea,...

5 men lmg grenadier is an even worse than rolling back on some of the buff that created the problem in the first place.


it's just endgame performance of double BAR Rifles, double Bren bolstered Sections and 7 men Cons that are the problem.

So address the problem (rifles/sections/conscripts as you say) and not the patient
(the grenadiers).


Unironically think all of the popular Allied mainlines could have 5% RA of their last veterancy buff removed and as compensation have their upgrades made cheaper. Afterwards you'd remove like 5-10% accuracy from the last veterancy buff of most Axis doctrinal infantry or something similar.

But not many would agree, so I'd be willing to vouch for STG Volk / LMG Gren buffs.

This is not about being popular it is about doing what is better and power creep in the long run creates far more problems than it solves.
26 Nov 2020, 19:24 PM
#74
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



I never was proposing that. The only single proposial I was making is to somehow look at ost early game power carriers like MG42. Because if some of MG42 power was taken and relocated towards vannila grens, to rufly keep everything at the same lvl of power as this combination providing right now.

This will be a nerf to cheesing with skipping T1 (because MG as itself will be weaker) and make vannila grens more plesent to use when they are not supported. They still will be weaker, but still should pose threat to more expensive inf, just like cons do to volks, if enemy engage them badly.

In other words, lets say if MG42 represents 90% of ost early game and Grens 10%, in my opinion it should be 60% for the MG42 and 40% for grens.


I suggested that only Kar98 Grens should had a minor or equal accuracy penalty as SMG when firing upon suppressed squads.

I don't think the solution to be a buff which pushes OH into Gren spam again.
26 Nov 2020, 22:17 PM
#75
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930

just take away the nuke grenade and give it a smoke instead.
An infantry that has an insane automatic gun should not have a super grenade on top of it, it just makes any retreating squad easy pray. Also, the vet1 need to be remade, the spike in power is just too much for an infantry that comes out so fast
24 Dec 2020, 05:24 AM
#76
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

bumped... the balance team should consider fixing this 3 minute panzergrenadier nonsense... no reason for them to come out this early in any setting
24 Dec 2020, 07:55 AM
#77
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1

bumped... the balance team should consider fixing this 0 minute Penals nonsense... no reason for them to come out this early in any setting
24 Dec 2020, 09:13 AM
#78
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1216

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2020, 07:55 AMVipper
bumped... the balance team should consider fixing this 0 minute Penals nonsense... no reason for them to come out this early in any setting


Undoubly penals are strong, they are however pretty forgiving in terms of wiping power. You can more easely play around them cuz of their slow start, you halt them with the mg42 more easely.

Pgrens however are much more leathal overall, dps is higher, their nade much much stronger.
24 Dec 2020, 09:16 AM
#79
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2020, 07:55 AMVipper
bumped... the balance team should consider fixing this 0 minute Penals nonsense... no reason for them to come out this early in any setting


yes because penals are totally comparable to pgrens...
24 Dec 2020, 09:34 AM
#80
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



Undoubly penals are strong, they are however pretty forgiving in terms of wiping power. You can more easely play around them cuz of their slow start, you halt them with the mg42 more easely.

Pgrens however are much more leathal overall, dps is higher, their nade much much stronger.

It is a bad design regardless. One can delay all these strong unit or have them start less powerful and give them weapon upgrades.

What does not work is having PG later and facing vetted infatry. Before the patch in a standard 3 grenadier built PG being the 4 unit was simply unpopular and for good reason.
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